Talking To A Psychologist About Your Exes Body Language

The Ex Boyfriend Recovery Podcast

Today I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. John Garrison.

A clinical psychologist and body language expert who runs the YouTube channel Dr. G explains.

In our interview we discuss,

• How do you know when someone’s behavior is Ocd?
• What it means to be caught in the honeymoon period.
• Understanding body language at its core.
• How to identify if someone is lying
• The body language of someone in love with you.
• How you decipher the body language of aggressive people
• How can you tell if someone is being serious
• Understanding narcissistic traits and narcissistic personality disorder.

Interview Transcript

Chris Seiter 00:11
so today we’re gonna be talking to Dr. Garrison, who has an MBA and Doctorate in clinical psychology is considered a body language expert and specializes in took specialized training and counterterrorism. His work has been featured in numerous media outlets, including Business Insider, Forbes, vice, Huffington Post, Yahoo News, real, some real simple and fatherly. I mean, I was just sort of like stumbling over myself with how how often you’ve been featured places. Thank you so much for coming.

Dr. G 00:40
I’m super happy to be here.

Chris Seiter 00:42
So we were talking a little bit before we actually started recording a little bit about how you have a background in diagnosing clinical disorders. Like, I guess, specifically, what I think is interesting to me here is the narcissistic personality disorder. And little bit of the, let’s just talk about the narcissistic personality disorder first, because I have noticed a lot of people in our community will say, Oh, my ex is narcissistic, but I’m not actually convinced to that. I think they just have some narcissistic traits not sure. Can you maybe speak to that a little

Dr. G 01:16
bit? Sure. So to make sense of that, I’m going to try to explain what personality disorders are because personality disorders are a little bit different than mental illness. And the way we differentiate that is something like depression, anxiety. The more common disorders that we hear about those are considered mental illness. A personality disorder is a dysfunction of the personality, they’re missing parts of their personality, that allow them to be a whole person to learn from interpersonal interaction, to get better to have a full satisfying life. So people that are missing these parts, they’ll have one part that is very dysfunctional, and it dominates their whole personality. So for a narcissist, for example, for someone with narcissistic personality disorder, grandiosity dominates their entire personality, they are genuinely pathologically grandiose. Historically, people have said, now it’s low self esteem being masked, it’s like no, they have pathologically high self esteem. They genuinely believe if someone is an actual narcissist, they genuinely believe they are better than other people, and other people are there to serve them in a very real way. So when we throw around the term narcissist, I think that can be used as a late term, it can be used casually, but oftentimes, it doesn’t actually mean narcissistic personality.

Chris Seiter 02:23
Yeah, I mean, we still, you know, obviously, we’re dealing with a lot of people who are heartbroken. So you know, there’s a lot of blame going on the other side they’ve been broken up with. And sometimes when I’ll talk about narcissists, I’ll talk about how they almost have like a supply Rolodex, where they’re just going from person to person getting their supply, and then moving on to the next person and kind of just they always have like someone for the different areas of their life that they need their, quote unquote, supply for, but I think people will sometimes take it too far and don’t under understand or differentiate that aspect of it.

Dr. G 02:58
Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of people and I think fairly so will describe someone as a narcissist, just because they seem focused on themselves. They don’t have good empathy. They’re not caring about their partner or former partner’s feelings. So I get why people use that term. I use it sometimes to describe somebody even if they don’t literally have narcissistic personality. So, you know, I think it’s pretty common that we use that term and I get why people use it.

Chris Seiter 03:20
Yeah, Yeah, same. So the other really interesting thing, or at least one of the things I wanted to ask you about is we talk a lot about attachment styles when we’re trying to diagnose or at least like take educated guesses on like, Hey, this is why we think this x is acting this way. And after polling our community most of our community believes that their ex has an avoidant attachment style, but there’s a there’s I think it was like 60% believe that their ex has an avoidant attachment style and then around like 25% believe that their ex has a fearful avoidant attachment style. But everything that I’ve read about fearful avoidance and understand about fearful avoidance, this is incredibly rare. And sometimes it can be mis classified as multiple personality disorder. Kind of just curious want to get your take or thoughts on that.

Dr. G 04:06
So when we talk about and I’m not a specialist in attachment theory, but I’m familiar with it. So you know, if we may discuss this a little bit more as we go with when you think about avoidant, avoidant is anxiety really, because anxiety is built around the concept of avoidance, we can’t be anxious and not avoid it just comes with the territory. So someone like a narcissist, they’re not anxious. So if we see someone that we think of as being a narcissist, and that we think that there have avoidant attachment, that’s actually I mean, it’s possible but that’s typically not what we would associate with that. Same with, when we think of the fearful avoidant, there’s a lot of people that think of that as being closer to borderline personality disorder, which is an unstable personality, like that’s the characteristic of borderline personality, this most prevalent is the instability because they struggle being proportional and stable. That’s the challenge there. So actually, though, Even though people oftentimes think of that, because I’ve discussed this with people, borderline personality actually, if that’s Take this too far sideways is actually more of the preoccupied anxious, preoccupied style of attachment because they get obsessive and preoccupied with things.

05:15
Okay, so can you maybe even like talk a little bit more about that or dig a little bit deeper for me about that. That’s interesting, because most of the people that we’ve polled in our community, not only they believe that their ex is avoidant, but they believe that they’re, they’re anxious and preoccupied. Anxious. So like, can you maybe even just talk a bit about that multiple personality disorder aspect from the anxious perspective? And like how that stir of it, I guess,

Dr. G 05:40
definitely. Okay. So. So, when you’re talking about multiple personality, are you talking about somebody who is kind of like Jekyll and Hyde, who was like, nice, one minute, and me the next or someone who literally has multiple personalities, just to be super clear on the fact.

Chris Seiter 05:53
Okay, so I want to dive into both. But I will say this that most of the time, what our clients would be really interested in is understanding whether X X Hot one moment cold the next moment, got it. So I guess dive into both.

Dr. G 06:07
Okay, so. So I’ll talk about the diagnostic piece first, because this is what I’m sure is a little bit less relevant to your listeners. But for someone who has multiple personalities, we call it dissociative identity. It’s where they literally phase between different personalities that don’t recognize each other. I mean, it’s a really serious diagnosis and a very rare with so probably not a lot of

Chris Seiter 06:28
people. Have you ever met someone with multiple personality disorder? One that

Dr. G 06:32
claims to have it so whether or not I’ve ever met an authentic person with it? I can’t say I’ve, I’ve, I’ve evaluated one person that claims to be experiencing that. But I couldn’t even really fully get clarity on whether or not that was legitimate. So it’s pretty rare. It really is. But but as far as, like someone who is hot, one minute cold the next. So just to get some clarity from you, would it be like that? One minute, they’re, they’re caring and close? And then one minute, they’re angry and aloof? I mean, is that sort of what you’re talking about?

Chris Seiter 07:10
Yeah, usually it’s, you know, they’re doing something that makes the client believe, Oh, they’re interested in coming back. And then, and then, I mean, I certainly have my own thoughts about like, why this is happening. But I’m just curious, and I don’t want to like, infect your your thinking at all. But basically, they’re doing something that makes the client believe like, Oh, they’re interested in coming back, and then all of a sudden, they disappear, or they even just lash out and grow angry.

Dr. G 07:37
So one of the things that can make somebody do that? Well, it’s kind of okay, so here’s where I’m struggling with this. Because I’m thinking about this, as we’re talking, I see a lot of couples, and there’s always there’s so many reasons for people’s behaviors. But one of the reasons that we see when someone is hot and cold like that, it can be because they’re manipulative, and because they want to have control. So they want to maybe throw some strings out and lead people on. For some people, it’s because they are anxious, and they just don’t know what to do. So it really depends so much person to person, but there’s there really is a wide variety of, of behaviors that can explain what we’re talking about.

Chris Seiter 08:14
Yeah, I think I think the context here would be going through a breakup. Okay. So the way I’ve always kind of tried to explain it to people, and maybe you would just sort of correct me if I’m wrong. Sure. I’ve always tried to explain to people that oftentimes, indeed, your ex is avoidant like, you think that it would make sense that they have this period where they’re kind of grown nostalgic, especially if they feel like you’ve moved on, or there’s enough space or whatever, that they, they grow nostalgic, they kind of paint you as the Fantomex, they, they start to gravitate back towards you. And then when they realize, Oh, someone’s here to take my independence again, they kind of bail and they freak out. And that anxious aspect kind of comes up. That’s why I’ve been interpreting it.

Dr. G 09:00
Okay, that makes a lot of sense to me, because I work with a lot of men who deal with this very thing, which is, they will, I mean, I’ve worked with couples trying to get married, where the guy would just couldn’t do it. I mean, I

Chris Seiter 09:13
swear to God, that’s like, 90% of our of our weapon. Okay.

Dr. G 09:17
So, so, you know, and I’ve seen in very real ways, where and I’ve actually helped people work through this. So I’ve been in the trenches, and this can take a lot longer than you might think. Or maybe you know exactly how long Yeah, so, so I’ll have someone come in. And they have these unreasonable fears about, well, what if this happens in the relationship and what if that happens, so then they were like, Okay, well, now I feel good about the idea of being together so yeah, so they come closer, they go, alright, we can do this. And then the other person is like, Hey, you’re coming back and then they go, hey, you know what, maybe I can’t do this, you know, maybe things are gonna get terrible and they run away. Okay, now we’re on the same page. Now I get what you’re talking about. And that is now this is not universally true. But there can be a form of OCD actually, that’s related to this, this can be an obsessive compulsive disorder process. And so what happens is, is that it gets to be the cycle where there are different neural pathways in the brain, ADHD, OCD, these other multiple disorders that overlap this pathway, but they have to do with being obsessive. And so some people call it our OCD like relationship OCD. Some people call it just call it OCD, because it’s the same thing. Our OCD is not technically a diagnosis, but if it’s relationship focused, it helps people, you know, Google it, or talk about it or whatever. But it’s still the same thing. But in essence, it is, you know, when someone’s obsessive compulsive, they have obsessive thoughts, and then they engage in compulsions to relieve those obsessions. So in other words, if someone’s obsession is, like, if I get to be with somebody, and I commit to them forever, if their obsessive thoughts, then oh, God, I’m going to lose my independence, then the compulsion is to withdraw or to pull away. And so and then they try to get close again. So then they get stuck in this loop. So it really can be and this is not universally true, but it can be a form of obsessive compulsive disorder, it really can.

Chris Seiter 11:09
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me, because one of the things I talked about is sort of the lifecycle of the cycle that a lot of exes we’ve observed are caught in there, which is they really liked this honeymoon period, because there’s no threat of a deeper commitment. But when that deeper commitment starts to be expected, they start to grow scared. And to your point. I think it’s almost like, this is just my opinion. But I think it’s almost like they’ve always learned to cope with this problem this specific way. And so it’s like this behavior that’s ingrained in them, maybe even from childhood. And so and so they just, they just, like, get caught in this cycle, where they’re just doing this from relationship to relationship and jumping from, from relationship to relationship, and can be really difficult for people too. And, you know, our clients are very particularly anxious. So they’re natural problem solvers. They want to get in there and just fix everything, which is the wrong thing to do sometimes, because that just exacerbates the problem.

Dr. G 12:09
Right? It’s the solution is not always obvious. And that’s the problem is that it’s like, if if the solution was logical, then yeah, your clients would probably be doing the right thing. The solution is not always the logic that the logic doesn’t always apply the way you think. So you go, yeah, this is what I should do to approach somebody who is running away or someone who’s anxious in this situation. And but then it’s not working. You go, Okay, I now I really don’t know what to do. So it’s very confusing, very, very confusing to know what to do.

Chris Seiter 12:36
So someone who’s in that specific situation, if they’re sitting down and have paid for like a session with you what what I’m just curious, like, what advice and by no means if it’s completely different from what I said, go for it. Because I’m I want to learn?

Dr. G 12:50
Sure, sure. So what would I so just to work through this example? So in other words, if it’s a couple that comes to me, and they say, this is the issue we’re having, like,

Chris Seiter 12:59
yeah, so the the woman comes to you, and she’s saying, um, you know, I’m trying to get him to commit, he won’t move in with me. Every time we talked about, he just sort of disappears or even threatens to break up with me, what do you typically advise to someone in that situation?

Dr. G 13:16
So the first is to figure out and presuming that I’m sure there have been plenty of discussions about this, because oftentimes, these things have been talked to death through through the couple already. But to find out, what’s the motivation behind that, is it because he’s, is it anxiety? Is it because he’s controlling? Is it because he’s angry? I mean, that’s the first step is to know okay, what’s motivating that behavior? If it is that someone’s anxious, then we got to figure out what life experiences are they’re basing this on? What is it that they’re afraid of losing, right? Because there’s always a fear of, okay, I’m gonna move in with somebody, what do I lose in that situation? Am I losing independence? Am I losing my ability to go with my friends, whatever it is, like, what would motivate what sort of loss is going to happen? By moving in, if we can really pinpoint what the anxieties are, we can figure out how to how to approach them and how to work through them. Because that really is in a very real way, for the ones that are for relationships that could be healthy, oftentimes, it’s anxiety motivating that, for relationships that are not so healthy, it’s oftentimes anger that’s motivating it. So when it’s if it’s the somebody’s too angry, and they need control, and they refuse to move in with you. That might be a very different discussion that we’re going to have than somebody who just like get so nervous.

Chris Seiter 14:27
Yeah, so basically just get out of that relationship. Time to move on.

Dr. G 14:31
I mean, that yeah, basically, that’s, that’s the long and short of it. Yeah.

Chris Seiter 14:35
Okay, so I’d like to actually switch gears here. So I mean, obviously, I told you how we came about my wife basically just obsessively watching through your YouTube videos. But of course, what makes you unique not only do you have this background in almost couples counseling, and obviously all of the clinical psychology elements but you also are a body language expert. And you are going through like some of the More recent like I think the with the Gabby Gabby PITINO?

Dr. G 15:06
Gabby petite O’Brien laundry case. Yeah,

Chris Seiter 15:08
I went through the Right. Right. And I think the the really horrible one in Colorado I

Dr. G 15:14
could see. Oh, there was Chris watts, Leticia Stella. Yeah.

Chris Seiter 15:18
Basically you’re going through all the footage and basically saying, oh, yeah, they’re lying here. They’re lying here. This is why I actually want to dive into that and apply it to breakups. Sure. So I actually went to our listeners and compiled a huge list of questions. So I’m just going to read you the questions. And

Dr. G 15:36
we’ll go from there. Go for it, please. Yeah.

Chris Seiter 15:38
So let’s start with maybe the lowest hanging fruit that should be easiest is how do you tell if someone’s like,

Dr. G 15:44
Yeah, okay. So, a couple of things that I want you to understand about this. So understanding body language, at its core, is recognizing a couple of things. One is that our feelings are connected to our bodies, you’ve got to recognize that if you believe the body language is even readable, you have to be able to believe that when you’re feeling angry, it’s going to show in your face, your body anxious, and so on and so forth, is that our brain and our bodies connected. Alright, that’s good science to show that that’s true. But you have to agree with that, to believe that body language is reasonable. The other part of it, if you want to really read lying and deception in particular, is to recognize most people don’t like to lie makes us anxious, we get nervous when we lie, at least for those of us that are not psychopaths, we get nervous when we lie psychopaths don’t. But that’s a whole different discussion, which we can get into if you want.

Chris Seiter 16:32
I’m already thinking of Ted Bundy. Yeah, and the reason I bring him up is because one of the things that people often said about him was how convincing he was. Sure. And if that whole, you know, your your brain, you know, your your feelings are kind of connected to your body. If that showed up for him.

Dr. G 16:51
It does. I did a video on him, actually. So it does sweet. But it’s also

Chris Seiter 16:55
super disturbing. So sorry, if you’re listening, but yeah, very disturbed individual well,

Dr. G 17:01
but one thing I will say before I finished explaining body language, because part of the relevance for true crime with this is that true crime, body language is often just an exaggeration of the same stuff that we see with everybody else, they might show a little bit less in some ways, or show exaggerations, and others, but it’s still human behavior, it’s not as different as you might think, actually. So the people are more disturbed, they’re doing more awful things, but the body language is still relatively similar. But it but in terms of the idea that people need to be anxious to show deception. And lying means that when you’re uncomfortable, you’re probably going to want to protect yourself in some way, like our head and our body are very vulnerable places, if we’re talking about things from a survival standpoint, because not to try to take these to get to try to explain too much. But I do think this is another important part is that the body is really good at survival. Like we as humans, we want to survive. So we do a lot of things to protect ourselves. So oftentimes, when people feel uncomfortable, they protect their abdomen, in their chest, they protect their face, or they do things to suit themselves, like our lips have lots of nerves in them. So he will do this kind of stuff a lot when they’re feeling nervous, because it makes them feel calmer. Same with men to the stroke their neck a lot. Women tend to touch their face, there’s things like that, that

Chris Seiter 18:14
are making me self conscious. Like I was doing that when we started the interview.

Dr. G 18:19
And so it’s so the important thing to recognize is that no body language is random. It’s all connected to something it’s all about a matter of how do I interpret it? I don’t want people to overeat body language, but also it can be used to keep yourself safe. It can be used to prevent people from manipulating you, I think they’re really important ways we can use body language. So

Chris Seiter 18:39
So okay, so obviously, feelings connected the body how, like, Are there any specific signs you need to look out for if they’re deceiving you in some way?

Dr. G 18:50
The one is, okay, so if they are just being manipulative, and they are just lying, but they’re not being asked questions, if they’re, if they’re sadistic, and they like hurting people, I mean, if we’re talking if someone is really someone who is good at lying, and it’s just them getting to act out wise, it’s harder to read, if you’re asking them questions, then it’s, that’s when things will show up that you can see. So in other words, like if somebody just, you know, I’ll use infidelity as an example of somebody cheating, right? They come home from cheating, and then they just say, oh, yeah, I just got back from the gym, and they’re just talking about it. They might not feel a lot of anxiety about that. But if somebody asks them, Hey, where were you, then they’re going to feel more anxiety. There’s a difference. So they can be deceptive and be convincing when they’re just in control of what they’re choosing to say. But once they’re under a microscope, and somebody has asked them questions, that’s when the body language comes out. But what we’re going to see with lying oftentimes is pacifying behaviors and defensive behaviors. And those can appear in many different ways, which we can talk about, but that’s what we look for.

Chris Seiter 19:56
Yeah, so this may be a dumb question to ask. I’m just an add on to the users question here. But, you know, a lot of our users are not at a place, usually when they’re interacting with their ex, or they’re doing it in person. So they’re either texting back and forth. Sometimes they’re sending voice notes back and forth, she can kind of hear the tone of voice, or very rarely do they do the FaceTime or Zoom type things. Sure. Is there any way to apply this to a text messaging medium, which I realized might be a stupid question? Yeah,

Dr. G 20:26
no, no body language expert. But no, I mean, you know, I’m a psychology expert, as well. So I mean, lying. And deception is also a very psychological manipulation as well. So yeah, they’re there, it would be a different set of rules. In terms of what you would look for, I can’t think off the top of my head, the best way to identify if somebody is is lying, other than learning to trust your gut, because that’s one thing that a lot of people don’t do is they’ll go, I know, this makes me feel anxious, but I’m going to ignore how I feel. Because I shouldn’t feel this way. I think really learning. If you have if, if you trust how you feel, to to learn to trust your gut to learn to see red flags, which I’m sure we’ll get into more of that as we go. But learning all of those things, I think, is important when it comes to texts and voice messages and those kinds of things.

Chris Seiter 21:09
Okay, so what if you have someone who is lying to you, but they have literally convinced themselves that the lies the truth? Is, does it still show up for them,

Dr. G 21:23
if in a very literal sense, they believe it at that point, it would be less likely to and I know, this is maybe slightly less relevant to your clients, but but I would say, and it probably is for some people, but like substance abuse, for example, that’s a good example of where people do that. There’s people that can be deeply into using substances that really do get to a place where they lie so much, they do start to believe their own lies sometimes, so they would show less of the anxious body language around that. When I’ve worked with people in substance abuse in the past, they can lie better than anybody I know. Truly. That really, yeah, absolutely. So somebody that’s had a history of pretty significant addiction. I’m pretty good at reading people. And I oftentimes won’t believe them if I know their past, but not because of their body language is but just because I know the logic of what they’re likely lying to me. But they don’t show it in the same way. So yeah, if somebody truly believes their own lies, they’d have no reason to show because they don’t feel anxious about it if they believe it.

Chris Seiter 22:19
Interesting. So I guess that kind of goes back to that Ted Bundy example. You said you did a video on him. He always struck me as someone who believed his own lies or was so good at manipulate, so narcissistic, he knew how to, you know, not have the tells? Well, I’m curious, what did you find with someone like that?

Dr. G 22:41
He does have some tells it’s interesting. His I analyze the video right before he was executed. So that’s trying to get to more of it. I know, sorry. But that’s just the reality of what he’s talking to somebody. And once you understand the context of why he’s talking to them, and you watch for patterns, you can start to figure out his tails, his tails are with his eyes, he closed his eyes a lot when he was lying. And he started doing that everybody’s got little tail, so his tails will be smaller and less frequent, but they’re there. So for him there, because the parts of the brain and psychopaths are less developed that get activated. When people lie, you can still see it, there’s just less of it, but he has cells too. So

Chris Seiter 23:25
that’s interesting. You know, the first time I ever learned about Ted Bundy was like, through some sort of Netflix documentary where he was, it was like the tapes he had recorded or something. And he was referring to himself in the third person or using some weird way to kind of like not be liable. Yeah, I don’t know. So is that what you ended up kind of like studying through those tapes? Or was it some other footage?

Dr. G 23:51
It was different footage. Actually, it was this was footage, the it was the final interview he chose to do, which he had his own reasons for wanting to do, you’d have to get into a lot of specifics to make sense of it. But But point being is it was something different, and it was, it’s pretty interesting.

Chris Seiter 24:07
Okay, well, okay, so after that more bit, no, let’s completely shift to the other end of the spectrum. Sure. All right. So what is the body language of someone that is actually in love with you? Okay,

Dr. G 24:19
so what we see with people that want to be connected, you know, I talked about how the most vulnerable parts are our chest or abdomen, our head, people that leave those open. Now, if somebody covers that a lot, that can also be that they’re very anxious, but we’ll talk about in a second. If you’re someone who feels true love, true vulnerability, they will leave this open. I mean, you think about somebody going in for a hug, they leave their arms open, right? Like that’s as vulnerable as we’re gonna get. Also leaning in, but it’s a little bit complicated. The language of love. Being close to people physically, is also unfortunately the same language, body language wise, it’s used to manipulation. So when you see somebody, I did a video on Charles Manson recently when he had a point to make he would lean in to talk to Diane Sawyer, and make sure that he got his point across. So I’m sorry to keep bringing this back. But I just want to point out that like, I don’t want people to be like, Oh, good, you know, my ex is leaning in, that means they’re feeling closer to me, it might be what it means it might also mean that they’re being manipulative. So that’s the challenge with this, but the but the body language of love and of closeness oftentimes is, we physically react the same way that we feel emotionally. So if you and I are talking and I start turning my body, it’s probably because I’m feeling uncomfortable talking to you, it’s because I’m not feeling connected to you. If I’m leaning in, it’s because I am feeling emotionally connected, or I want you to feel emotionally connected. So it is, in a very real way, for somebody who is comfortable with physical contact, who is comfortable being with people, they will engage in those kinds of behaviors when they feel real love.

Chris Seiter 25:46
Do you subscribe to the mirroring concept? You know, I took this class, I think it was a psychology class in college, where they showed us this video of these couples that were in love with each other and one would lean in the other was lean in when one would lean back. The other would lean back. Do you see that at all?

Dr. G 26:05
Absolutely. That’s very real 100%. And that’s actually something we learned as therapists when I was in grad school is when we’re talking to clients, when people are feeling when there are certain times where we do use our bodies, we might lean a little bit further forward if they feel if they need that kind of support. So very much in a very real way. Mirroring is very important. That’s part of the reason why people on the autism spectrum spectrum struggle in relationships, because their mirror neurons don’t work the same way as everybody else’s. So they struggle to mimic in that way. So it can make them seem withdrawn or make them seem aloof. Even if they feel really intense love or caring. They don’t know how to show it in the same way because they’re not good at mirroring. So yeah, mirroring is a huge part of the human experience actually.

Chris Seiter 26:47
Interesting. Okay, so let’s switch gears with the so this, hopefully you can answer this one sure is a long one. How do you decipher the body language of someone who squares their body and stares directly at you while taking an aggressive tone. But when I do the same, he cowers and looks to the side will make eye contact and softens his voice also swaying side to side to avoid eye contact.

Dr. G 27:11
Right? So if I’m understanding this, right, it’s like when this guy talks to somebody, he has an aggressive body posture, but when it’s when it’s flipped, and this person does it back to him. They don’t like it so much. Right? So it looks

Chris Seiter 27:26
like it’s the square their body staring directly at the girl. Yeah, while talking in an aggressive tone. But when she does the same to him, when she tries to mirror that back, he cowers and looks to the side. I mean,

Dr. G 27:41
it’s obviously it’s the dominant stance, right? Like when when you’re going to have, you’re going to square your body, you’re going to speak in a dominant way. The purpose of that is control. Obviously, I don’t know these people, I’m not saying that specifically is his intent, but that’s how I would interpret the way it’s described. And so when somebody tries to take any sort of similar position, and they, they seem uncomfortable with that, that sounds like somebody who needs a lot of control. It sounds like somebody who doesn’t like it when somebody else tries to assert control, and it makes them uncomfortable. And so they turn away. Interesting. Control dynamics and couples is very complicated, like control and all that is yeah,

Chris Seiter 28:17
a lot of it, I think requires a lot of context and nuance to like give the perfect read on it. And so it’s hard with just like one paragraph of explanation without knowing, like, every every element. But I mean, what you’re saying makes total sense to me. Like, the interesting aspect to me is like when she mirrors it back to him, he sort of cowers but I guess that would make sense because he doesn’t have control of her. And so he’s reacting to that.

Dr. G 28:44
Yeah, so some people that feel uncomfortable will cower. Some people that feel uncomfortable, will double down and get more aggressive, right? Everybody’s a little bit different, or will handle that type of thing a little bit differently. But that speaks to an unhealthy dynamic, right, like, hopefully that would that that doesn’t speak to the positive things about those interactions, I

Chris Seiter 29:03
think, yes. I mean, we are dealing with a breakup here. So obviously flawed relationship. Yeah. This next one. I’m actually curious to hear what you say. Do you believe it’s possible to fake confidence? Like to fake it until you make it?

Dr. G 29:17
Definitely, absolutely. I think half people out there faking confidence. But since I’m so sure, I teach people all the time, how to fake it until you make it because having real confidence and I don’t mean like bravado and like going over the top with feeling confident. Sometimes it can do with your posture and how you say things. And when you get used to that you go, hey, you know what, I actually feel more confident doing this. I’m going to do it again. A big part of working through anxiety is going hey, I know this makes you feel anxious to ask you to do this anyway. Just see, see how it feels afterwards and we’ll talk about it. So absolutely. Faking confidence is something I encourage people to do when they’re comfortable to do it.

Chris Seiter 29:54
So what are your tips for faking confidence from a body language person?

Dr. G 30:00
octaves? Well, I think part of it is, you know, taking on not a rigid posture, but having a being aware of what your body’s doing. Because oftentimes we don’t sit and go, Hey, am I relaxed right now my tennis right now, doing all of that is such an important part of being able to feel calm, being able to feel confident, recognizing how you’re going to come across to others. A big part of anxiety is avoidance, as I said before, so if people are avoiding certain situations, they’re avoiding confident body postures, they need to ask himself why why is he standing up and, and looking confident looking straight ahead, not looking down those types of behaviors? Why am I uncomfortable with that? And if I am, I’m going to challenge and try it this time and see how it feels afterwards. So oftentimes, it is saying, What am I comfortable doing right now? Can I try and experiment and do this differently this time? You know, what’s the worst that can happen? If I do this? I walk away later go, Yeah, look, I felt foolish doing that. I don’t want to do it again. Okay, fine, but nothing catastrophic is going to happen. So let’s try it out. Yeah.

Chris Seiter 30:56
All right. Can you tell if someone is in love with you, by the way, they look at you, I’ve heard something about pupils dilating. So

Dr. G 31:03
there is truth to that arousal is tied to pupil dilation. So I mean, you gotta have some really good eyesight, but I suppose. So sit still, let me look at your at your pupils. Now. I mean, there that is true. Although I would be hard pressed to imagine that you could, you could actually see that. So I mean, you can see it in a picture, but it’s hard to see like when you’re looking at someone.

Chris Seiter 31:27
Okay, going back to the cheating example that you use, if someone believes that cheating isn’t wrong, does reading body language still work? Are the cues still the same?

Dr. G 31:36
Everybody knows it’s wrong. Yeah. Still the same. They’re just like, I mean, honestly, like, nobody doesn’t think cheating is wrong. They might legitimize it or they might, you know, do it anyway. But there’s nobody that’s not gonna feel some level of discomfort when being confronted about cheating.

Chris Seiter 31:52
I mean, the thing I always tried to tell people is, if your ex is feeling the need to hide something, that means inherently, they understand on some level, it’s wrong. And it’s going to hurt you. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. So the cue viewers saying basically, no matter what, it’s most likely, they’re just lying when they say cheating isn’t wrong?

Dr. G 32:13
Yeah, I don’t think there are many people that truly believe that unless that’s some sort of relationship rules that people have made. And they’ve agreed upon. But like, as far as just like, guys were like, Yeah, Cheating is not wrong. I can do whatever I want. You know, I think that someone’s lying to themselves if they’re actually saying that nobody actually believes that.

Chris Seiter 32:33
So I mean, that’s pretty much it for the for the main questions. The other two questions that have were basically already answered, how can I appear more confident? I literally asked that just organically. And how can you tell when someone is being serious, even when their words are the opposite? Which I feel like is, well, okay. Yeah, that last one? Yeah. Okay.

Dr. G 32:51
So how can? How can you tell if someone is being serious if their words are the opposite? That’s a good question. I guess the question, is it? Well, here’s a question I really want to pose to people because I think it’s important is, do I want to be with somebody who’s like that? Right? Like, if they’re, if they feel the need to be deceptive? Is there a point where I go, you know, this, these are red flags, I should probably pay attention to these red flags and not lean into them. I should say, you know, what, maybe this person, I know, I feel a kinship with this person. I feel close to them. I want to be with them. But why am I ignoring these red flags? I think that that’s the better question, honestly.

Chris Seiter 33:31
Yeah. So I mean, just giving you some of my impressions of our audience. Sure. I’ve been doing this since 2012. So for 10 years, we’ve been running the community for six or seven years. So I’ve had a lot of time interacting with them. And one of the things that I’ve noticed, or at least one of the trends I’ve noticed is how codependent like a lot of my work. When I work with someone, they’re hiring me to say like, Hey, how helped me get my ex back? And I’m saying, Well, before we worry about that, let’s actually get used to that you’re not so codependent on them. So then you can make the decision on whether or not you want to get back with them or just move on with your life find someone better? Yep. So I feel like a lot of the time, what you’re what you’re saying is like, Well, why would you want to be with someone like that? I think our audience is so stuck in that codependent, you know, was rolling around their world that they can’t break free. Do you have any advice for someone who is stuck in that?

Dr. G 34:25
Yeah, I that’s that’s a great point. Because it’s not that I think that people can’t have flaws. And they can’t have exes with issues that you guys can’t work through. I think that that’s a very common and normal and healthy thing. But I think that there’s a point where you go, how big are the red flags I’m looking at, right? Because that’s one of the issues I see with people like the people that ended up with a narcissist. There’s a variety of people, reason people end up into situations and sometimes the flag the red flags will be right there. I’m gonna go I see those. I’m going to choose to ignore them. And it’s like, that’s fine as long as you know what you’re doing. And so I think you really have to measure the severity of What’s going on and go if the if I’m trying really hard to get them back, and they’re really resistant, and there’s just a lot of dysfunction there? Yeah. Is this worth it is are these red flags? Should I be paying more attention to these? So that’s it’s always a matter of magnitude and whether or not these are bumps in the road, whether or not they were genuine red flags if for whatever reason you’re just insisting on ignoring.

Chris Seiter 35:20
Yeah, and I think that kind of comes back to that narcissistic aspect you’re talking about. One of the pairings that we see a lot is, you know, someone who’s very codependent being in relationship with the narcissistic person because the narcissistic person is just like, ooh, jackpot. You know, I could just sort of like continually use this person. I’ve always tried to explain it like, I don’t think someone who has narcissistic personality disorder views you as a human being normally they view you as like, oh, they are the person who can give me sex, they are the person who can I can come to for emotional support, and then just ditch them. Is that do you think that’s an accurate way of looking at it? That is

Dr. G 35:59
an incredibly accurate way of looking at it because what it is, we use the term like terms like objectify, you know, like this, like people are objectifying other people. narcissists literally see people as objects, like in a very literal sense. And so that’s the thing you got to understand these are not people to them their ways to get their needs met, just like you’re describing. So that is very accurate, unfortunately. And it’s hard for people to recognize that that aren’t narcissist because they go, what? Who thinks like that? It’s like, you’d be surprised some people really do.

Chris Seiter 36:27
Yeah, it I think we’re getting into this really complicated discussion is the fact that everyone has I feel like some narcissistic traits, but they’re not narcissistic person like diagnosis and Narcissus, you know, like, yeah, so I feel like sometimes our audience just sees like, Oh, my ex did this, this thing in this thing, which a narcissist does. He’s a narcissist. And that’s not always the case. They’re they’re pretty rare. Yeah, they’re

Dr. G 36:55
about let me think the percentage, I think it’s about one and a half to 2% of the population. So they’re not like, super rare, but they’re rare enough to where everybody’s boyfriend or ex is not a narcissist.

Chris Seiter 37:08
Right? Well, so Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well, so obviously, you run this really amazing YouTube channel. And I’m going to 100% link to it and all of the socials when this interview goes up, but do you want to tell us a little bit about your YouTube channel and kind of pit yourself?

Dr. G 37:24
I would love to Yeah, so my YouTube channel is Dr. G explains. And basically, it is me Dr. G, explaining different aspects of mostly true crime nowadays, I also cover some about personality disorders. I’ve done some videos on narcissism. I’ve done some videos on on relationships, but for the vast majority, 95% of my videos are covering current true crime, reading body language, understanding behavior, and understanding the psychology behind these various heinous acts that happen. Oftentimes, I watch parts of trials and analyze interrogations, all sorts of interesting stuff that intersects in ways that you may or may not realize, with your clients, because 90% of the people who watch true crime are women actually. And it’s because people feel like they’re equipping themselves with knowledge to protect themselves by watching true crime. And that’s part of the part of the attraction to it. So what I My goal with my videos, really is to help people learn how to not get manipulated. So I’m pointing out, these are masters of manipulation, here’s how they’re doing it. So if you can watch for these kinds of behaviors, then you are less likely to be manipulated. So that really is my goal. I don’t do it. Because I think that serial killers are interesting or cool. I really don’t. I think they’re very flawed and broken people. And what I’m showing you is how they’re broken and how you can avoid interacting with people like this.

Chris Seiter 38:46
Yeah. And identify, I mean, I think that’s spot on for anyone listening. You know, I don’t know how good of a review I can give you other than my wife literally got so sucked into his YouTube channel. She could not sleep. So go watch it. Thank you. Thank you for coming on and doing this. I really appreciate it. Yeah,

Dr. G 39:05
no, it was. It was my pleasure. I had a lot of fun.

The post Talking To A Psychologist About Your Exes Body Language first appeared on Ex Boyfriend Recovery.