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297 – Stop Blaming The Victim, with Dr. Amelia Franck Meyer

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Dr. Sandie Morgan looks back at Episode 28 “Stop Blaming the Victim” with, Dave Stachowiak and Amelia Franck Meyer. The three discuss the prevalence of victim blaming against commercially sexually exploited children, how it affects the children, and how to help them.

Dr. Amelia Franck Meyer

When we first interviewed Dr. Amelia Franck Meyer, she was the CEO of Anu Family Services, a child welfare agency located in 90 different counties in Wisconsin and Minnesota. Now, Amelia Franck Meyer serves as Anu’s Senior Strategic Advisor and is the founder and CEO of Alia. Alia provides innovations for people and systems impacted by childhood trauma and is a strategic partner of Anu Family Services. Amelia is leading a movement to create a child welfare system where both caregivers and children can thrive. She has worked throughout the United States and internationally, promoting her ideas to change the way children welfare systems work. Amelia Franck Meyer also brought together professionals at the University of Minnesota, where she received her master’s degree in social work, to create Youth Connections Scale and Wellbeing Indicator Tool for Youth, two tools largely used in the child welfare sphere.

Key Points

  • Terms like “teen prostitute” and “child prostitute” are incorrect and dangerous as they suggest youth were voluntarily involved.
  • Blaming victims instead of seeing them as children who are in need of protection adds to the harm these youth have already experienced.
  • A lot of the youth being found in these circumstances are children who were already in the Foster care system. Because these children felt that they had no protection in the system, from the lack of adult connection, they took it upon themselves to find protection.
  • When commercially sexually exploited youth are found, they have already had their innocence taken from them, however, they also lost the time they should have had doing things with their families and friends.

Resources

Love the show? Consider supporting us on Patreon!

Transcript

Sandra Morgan 0:00
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode 297.

Welcome back! My name is Sandie Morgan. Producing this podcast, dedicated to studying the issues, being a voice, and making a difference takes a team. We’re saying another goodbye, this time to Idalis Moscoso, who has served as blog editor, organizer, wonderful website content provider. She’s going off to Italy for grad school and we wish her well. And, we’re welcoming on board Nadia Sosa. When I asked Nadia recently what her favorite episode has been during her onboarding, she quickly responded, “number 28!” I immediately knew what she was talking about and I want everyone to revisit it with us. You’ll be listening now to Dr. Amelia Franck, in Episode 28, “Stop Blaming the Victim.” The bonus is that you will also get to hear Dave again throughout this interview. Okay now, let’s get to the episode. Here’s me introducing our guest.

Let me introduce Amelia Franck Meyer, she has been the CEO of Anu Family Services since 2001. That’s a child welfare agency located in Wisconsin and Minnesota. For those of you who listened to the last podcast, we were talking about not calling these kids terms that put them into juvenile delinquency, but finding the opportunities and making opportunities by giving them designations that place them squarely in a child welfare context. That’s exactly what Amelia does. She is an advanced practice social worker, a licensed independent social worker, she has a master’s degree in social work from University of Minnesota and a master’s degree in sociology from Illinois and a graduate certificate from the University of Minnesota. We are very happy to have you here. Welcome.

Amelia Franck Meyer 2:42
Thank you. My pleasure to be here.

Sandra Morgan 2:44
Well, when you did your workshop for us at the Ensure Justice Conference, the title of your workshop was “Stop Blaming the Victim.” We talked about the kinds of baggage that come with terms like “teen prostitute” and “child prostitute” and what that does so that people say things that are really just unreasonable. A clinician that says, “Well, the first time she was forced, but after that it’s her choice.” Or, “Well, if she’s dressed like that, what does she expect?” So we have lots of evidence that people do blame the victim and we have people who are trying to be part of the solution that even blame the victim because she doesn’t follow through on what we advised her to do. What we want to hear from you today is why we shouldn’t blame the victim. What is her experience? What can we do to better understand the victim?

Amelia Franck Meyer 3:48
Well, I’m just struck with this group of girls, how much it reminds me of the Stockholm Syndrome and the work that’s been done around that where victims actually identify with their abusers as a protective mechanism. It’s a normal healthy brain response to captive trauma. When I hear words like “teen prostitute”, I get a little cringed hearing those because there is an implied meaning that it’s a trade, that it’s voluntary or chosen, that if she just wanted to leave she could. Clearly, this does not really emphasize the impact of trauma and fear. There’s so many things we can relate to this kind of experience for girls in terms of kidnap victims, prisoners of war, Elizabeth Smart, Patty Hurst, the experience of folks who are kept not in their will, eventually stop trying to leave because of fear and trauma. This is something that we do as human beings when we’re in these life or death situations, which in many cases, this is for these girls. We find ways to survive. Using terms like that, that implie some level of trade, profound impact that is common here, you’ll hear the same kinds of things, “Why didn’t they just leave?” Because there is a very pervasive technique of fear and humiliation and degradation that is used to make sure that they feel like they can’t leave, that they might die, or someone close to them might die, or something terrible would happen to them. This is a kind of brainwashing or occulting that goes on, to help to alter the thinking and the ability, and will of folks so that they stay in these environments, out of fear. They stay in these environments as a matter of survival.

Sandra Morgan 5:59
So when we were ending our last podcast, we were citing some of the problems that these kids have, that are brought out of being commercially sexually exploited. Besides the sexually transmitted diseases, PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, seems to be one of the common factors. And you just mentioned the trauma associated with this, with rape. Can you speak to that?

Amelia Franck Meyer 6:32
Well, a lot of the work that I do in child welfare centers around loss, grief and loss, and responding to trauma from that perspective. That is what I think about when I think about these girls in terms of the trauma aspect, and what girls are left with as a result of this. You talked about some of the physical and health implications and those are quite serious in many, many cases and have lifelong impacts. But the the other pieces are the incredible grief that comes around the losses, and I’ll just name a few off the top of my head, really not having intensive experience in this area, but knowing how closely it relates to the girls that I work with as well. The loss of innocence, the loss of being a kid, the loss of time that has gone by and what you have missed in your family life, in your own community and with your siblings, the loss of respect, the loss of dignity, the loss of human relationships that have been damaged through this time. These are things that in many situations are unrecoverable. So feeling like it is not only the experience at that moment, that one has endured the fear, the pain, the humiliation. It’s not only that, but it is all the things that were supposed to be there for a 12 year old, that were supposed to be in that space, that were replaced by those things. Playing, connecting, learning how to interact with boys in a healthy and innocent way, family connections, having your parents feel proud of you, academic achievement, the experience of going to the pool with your friends at the summer. All the stuff that was supposed to be in that space is taken. And that, the loss of those human connections, the loss of that experience, the loss of that dignity, the loss of that respect is so profound. That in itself is incredible trauma. Then when you think about what got put in place of those things that are supposed to be there for a normal, healthy growing experience for a young girl, and what they had to do instead, that trauma is so complex that it will have pervasive effects.

Sandra Morgan 9:06
Wow, when you start making a list of the loss of those kinds of childhood memories around family vacations and going swimming, I think of a little girl’s first school dance. She’s supposed to learn how to wait to be asked to dance. Wow.

Amelia Franck Meyer 9:28
Learning to bake with your mom, riding a bike, your pet. I mean, you name it. It’s that that wondrous experience, when it’s done in a healthy way, that wondrous experience of childhood. All that wonder, all that innocence, just completely robbed. So when you talk about rape, it is the raping of childhood.

Dave 9:51
And it’s interesting too, when we think about the list that you just mentioned Amelia, Sandie, I think back to the topic we talked about on our last podcast about the importance of the terminology that we utilize. Many of the things that Amelia has just listed here would be, could be substantially different if we use different terminology in how we describe the situations that these young children have been in. Many of these things, like the loss of respect, you know, would just be very different if our society had different language to process, how we have dialogue about this.

Amelia Franck Meyer 10:31
Absolutely. What I’ve just been really taken aback by I guess, is, since being at the conference with you, Sandie, and presenting, I’ve come back home to my, my home community in the Twin Cities, Minneapolis and St. Paul, and I’ve just started to learn what’s happening and what’s going on, and what are the services. I was really hoping to come back home and find that somebody was taking care of this, and I could go back to my child welfare experience. Instead, I’m just finding how much needs to be done there and how overlapping these areas are that these are our girls. I’m working with girls who have found themselves in traumatic situations and a lot of cases dealing with their losses. They’re so vulnerable to this kind of experience and so vulnerable to this, because of this basic human need to be long. It’s the same kind of thing that attracts our young men into gangs, and there’s that missing component when you have trauma, with a lack of healthy human connections with adults, when you’re a child. The vulnerability that that creates for our youth is very frightening to me. What’s really been taking me aback in learning about these services is that people do not discuss these girls. I have talked to folks in many different levels of the system, but we don’t talk about them as children in need of protection. They are children in need of protection. This is, to me akin to starving children stealing a loaf of bread, and incarcerating them, instead of trying to alleviate their hunger. I mean, I think people would just be outraged at that. I mean, I think society would be outraged that you have starving children who steal food for survival and in fact, we’re incarcerated and labeled and re-victimized because of that act of survival.

Sandra Morgan 12:30
So we need to, to re-frame how we see these children. They’re looking instead of for bread, because they’re hungry, they’re looking for belonging. They are hungry for the feeling of belonging.

Amelia Franck Meyer 12:45
That’s right. A child in need of protection, is one who, in most cases, and I know there are some differences for some girls, but in most cases, do not have a healthy adult who is protecting their safety and well being. They cannot do that for themselves, they are children. They will find places to garner that protection. This is one of the things that happens.

Sandra Morgan 13:11
So how are we going to change that experience for children in need of protection?

Amelia Franck Meyer 13:16
I’m just really thinking of them as children. Rather than, I think when we start talking about a “teen prostitute” or “girl prostitute”, that’s a whole different thing that gets conjured up. They are children in need of protection. I’m really thinking about, you know, I hear stories about, “Well, she was 15. So she was released to live with her uncle who was really her pimp or what have you.” Would we release a three year old in that same situation? Without really evaluating that adults need and ability to keep that child safe? Because, in fact, these girls in many cases, those who have experienced trauma or been victims of trauma, on the outside might be 15. But really, they have not developed on the same kind of linear path as a child who has had different experiences. They’re underdeveloped in a lot of ways, and they’re stuck at many of those ages where that trauma happened.

Sandra Morgan 14:14
Okay, so then I look at this girl, I think I’m talking to a 15 year old, but if I could see inside her mind, I’m really talking to an 11 year old?

Amelia Franck Meyer 14:24
That’s right, or a six year old. It’s not all parts of her, some parts are 15. But parts that were impacted by the trauma, including some of her thought processes, decision making ability from the emotional capacities are younger.

Sandra Morgan 14:41
So what can we do when we encounter this 15 year old besides put her in a safe place, which has for the most part been identified as juvenile detention? Does that meet her emotional needs? Loaded question. Sorry.

Amelia Franck Meyer 15:01
I view a lot of these children through the lens of loss, right? So there is healing that needs to happen. In talking to one rescued victim, she said, “I don’t think police should show up, I think ambulance should show up to come get us. We have been really harmed. We need treatment and healing.” I think a lot about how you go to juvenile detention, and you turn the key and you open it up. There’s carpet, clean bedspreads, and stuffed animals. We start working on grieving these intense losses and start to work on what the thinking patterns that victims helped to create, to identify with their abuser, for survival. We start undoing some of that kind of thinking, and grieving some of these losses, and treating these children, like we understand what has happened, which is: they have been, I don’t care what they say, I don’t care if they say it was willingly, they are children, they can’t make a willing choice in that way. We know that about other laws of statutory kinds of things that children under 18 cannot make these decisions for themselves, I don’t care what comes out of their mouth, they don’t have the capacity yet to do it and they’re victims of trauma. Really understanding that these children need healing, they need safe space to grieve, they need our assistance in helping them to unravel and sort out what the heck has happened to them, how it happened, what it meant, what parts they want to heal and leave behind, what parts of them are resilient and will be stronger that they can bring with them and what does this mean in terms of going forward? It takes very special people to do that work, who are deeply committed to understanding that the behaviors you will see from them are the result of trauma.

Sandra Morgan 17:01
So how do we create that kind of environment for a child? Is it even possible for us to do that? How much time is it going to take?

Amelia Franck Meyer 17:11
Well, I’ve been working on that idea Sandie. I’m not one to tell you things are impossible, you’ve come to the wrong person. I’m more about how and when is it possible? I think there is a significant mind shift that needs to happen, because there are laws in place to protect children in these ways and there are funding streams in place to protect children. But if you start seeing them as criminals and juvenile justice problems, who chose this, it’s a lot different. Shifting that thinking and understanding that these are victims of trauma for children in need of protection, changes the whole game. Finding secure, safe ways to keep these children safe from the threats that present themselves, while we do some of this healing work, it’s very possible. I’m not sure exactly what that looks like but I will tell you, I’ve talked with a lot of colleagues about that, in terms of “Do these youth need a safe and secure, locked facility in which they can do healing, until they understand some of what’s happened to them and are more open to some of the healing?” Then have less restrictive environments where they could be a part of grieving their losses and experiencing a safe place to do that.

Sandra Morgan 18:27
So starting with a lockdown facility, basically,

Amelia Franck Meyer 18:32
One that’s very different than any that you’ve ever seen.

Sandra Morgan 18:35
Okay. Okay, so how long do you think that, say a 14 year old who had gone through this, would need in that kind of facility?

Amelia Franck Meyer 18:45
I’m not really sure and I think it might be an experiment, because I don’t know.

Sandra Morgan 18:50
I know people are working on trying to make something like that happen but at this point, it’s very much a hope.

Amelia Franck Meyer 18:58
Right. It might be different for every girl. I don’t know that that’s prescribed and I don’t know that it’s been tried. I sure think we ought to start trying more akin to cure healing facility rather than a juvenile lockdown.

Dave 19:16
I think that this speaks to one of the challenges too, whenever we talk about laws being broken, regardless who’s doing them the legal system’s involved and there are certain standards that need to be addressed. The reality is one of the things Amelia just said, you know, every person is different, every situation is unique. It really is going to require all of us to be able to look at this through a lens of really looking at each person as a person versus just looking at the person as a number or just a criminal report.

Sandra Morgan 19:55
And Amelia, you talked about this special kind of person it takes to be there for this victim in the recovery process. What I’m beginning to see, and I’ve heard from what you do from Tina Feigl, from Karen Bergstrom at Olive crest, that there is a movement to prepare foster parents for these kids. How do you see that as a placement alternative, that will make a huge difference?

Amelia Franck Meyer 20:23
That’s a big piece of what my involvement is. At Anu Family Services, we’re really focused on building healthy connections, healthy, permanent connections for kids, and are having great success at that. These kinds of kids are particularly in need of folks who understand trauma and grief and loss, which is what our foster parents are intensively trained in. I think, you know, with another layer of understanding the circumstances that these children have gone through, so some additional training, but really a strong basis in trauma and grief and loss will be critical to understanding the healing that needs to happen here and how to guide that healing while creating safe environments. I’ve met amazing people capable of creating sanctuary space for that kind of healing in their own home.

Sandra Morgan 21:16
I think one of the things that I want people to take away from listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast on a regular basis, is that there is something we each can do. It may not be to become the CEO to build that safe environment, that lockdown facility that’s going to require all kinds of staff and security measures. But it may be becoming a parent to one child.

Amelia Franck Meyer 21:46
Absolutely, or a mentor. Maybe not even in your home if you’re not able, but a stable constant mentor. We just know from research and our own good common sense that kids fare better when they’re connected to loving, stable adults. We know this. There’s a lot more information on that on my website at www.anufs.org. We talked about our grief and loss model there with Dr. Darla Henry and we talked about some of the great outcomes we’ve seen when you can create that space for kids to do their grieving.

Sandra Morgan 22:25
We’ll put that website on our show notes too. Because we want people to see that model and even if you’re not in that area, begin to ask those questions and create space for that conversation in your community and bring experts like Amelia to help with the training for that, like we did at Ensure Justice this year. The last question is: Before they become commercially sexually exploited children, they often were already in the system. They often had already been in some kind of foster care, some kind of group home. They had already been pulled from a toxic environment in their own community. So they still have all the same grief and loss issues, it sounds like . How do we do a better job of identifying those kids and doing special foster placement?

Amelia Franck Meyer 23:20
We have a larger societal obligation to kids to say something when we see something that isn’t right, and to do our best to keep our eyes open and protecting and valuing children and looking them in the eye and saying hello, when you pass them on the street and really voting, advocating, and living in a way that respects children and values them for what they are, instead of seeing them as problems. I think just in general, that’s important to do. I believe that you are correct that so much of this comes from other trauma, early trauma and so many of the kids we see, boys and girls in foster care have come from environments of trauma, many of whom have been abused and neglected, often sexually abused, which opens the doors to this more commercial kinds of abuse. We mentioned some of the things to do in terms of being a mentor, becoming a foster parent, or really taking an active interest in finding ways to respect and value children because we don’t in a lot of ways in our society and really opening our eyes. I’ll just close with a really quick story. A friend of mine said she went to see a Cirque De Soleil and there were a bunch of youth groups there and she took her kids there. Then shows up the stripper on the 50 foot stripper pole and did a 15 minute dance scantily dressed on the pole. She just wanted to stand up and scream, “There are children here!” It was billed as a children’s show, lots of people were there with children and nobody seemed to flinch. Nobody seemed to think there was anything wrong with that and everything in her said, “What are we doing?” I just invite folks to open their eyes a little bit more and take a look around at what our kids are seeing, what our kids are experiencing too. There are all sorts of ways to protect and engage children.

Sandra Morgan 25:06
Wow. Sounds like a big job and we are glad that you are on it, Amelia.

Amelia Franck Meyer 25:11
Thank you. I’ve appreciated my time and ability to talk a little bit with you about this.

Sandra Morgan 25:19
Thank you so much for listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. I hope you enjoyed this rebroadcast and took away from the points made by Dr. Amelia Franck, I look forward to seeing you again in two weeks.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan looks back at Episode 28 “Stop Blaming the Victim” with, Dave Stachowiak and Amelia Franck Meyer. The three discuss the prevalence of victim blaming against commercially sexually exploited children, how it affects the children, and how to help them.

Dr. Amelia Franck Meyer

When we first interviewed Dr. Amelia Franck Meyer, she was the CEO of Anu Family Services, a child welfare agency located in 90 different counties in Wisconsin and Minnesota. Now, Amelia Franck Meyer serves as Anu’s Senior Strategic Advisor and is the founder and CEO of Alia. Alia provides innovations for people and systems impacted by childhood trauma and is a strategic partner of Anu Family Services. Amelia is leading a movement to create a child welfare system where both caregivers and children can thrive. She has worked throughout the United States and internationally, promoting her ideas to change the way children welfare systems work. Amelia Franck Meyer also brought together professionals at the University of Minnesota, where she received her master’s degree in social work, to create Youth Connections Scale and Wellbeing Indicator Tool for Youth, two tools largely used in the child welfare sphere.

Key Points

  • Terms like “teen prostitute” and “child prostitute” are incorrect and dangerous as they suggest youth were voluntarily involved.
  • Blaming victims instead of seeing them as children who are in need of protection adds to the harm these youth have already experienced.
  • A lot of the youth being found in these circumstances are children who were already in the Foster care system. Because these children felt that they had no protection in the system, from the lack of adult connection, they took it upon themselves to find protection.
  • When commercially sexually exploited youth are found, they have already had their innocence taken from them, however, they also lost the time they should have had doing things with their families and friends.

Resources

Love the show? Consider supporting us on Patreon!

Transcript

Sandra Morgan 0:00
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode 297.

Welcome back! My name is Sandie Morgan. Producing this podcast, dedicated to studying the issues, being a voice, and making a difference takes a team. We’re saying another goodbye, this time to Idalis Moscoso, who has served as blog editor, organizer, wonderful website content provider. She’s going off to Italy for grad school and we wish her well. And, we’re welcoming on board Nadia Sosa. When I asked Nadia recently what her favorite episode has been during her onboarding, she quickly responded, “number 28!” I immediately knew what she was talking about and I want everyone to revisit it with us. You’ll be listening now to Dr. Amelia Franck, in Episode 28, “Stop Blaming the Victim.” The bonus is that you will also get to hear Dave again throughout this interview. Okay now, let’s get to the episode. Here’s me introducing our guest.

Let me introduce Amelia Franck Meyer, she has been the CEO of Anu Family Services since 2001. That’s a child welfare agency located in Wisconsin and Minnesota. For those of you who listened to the last podcast, we were talking about not calling these kids terms that put them into juvenile delinquency, but finding the opportunities and making opportunities by giving them designations that place them squarely in a child welfare context. That’s exactly what Amelia does. She is an advanced practice social worker, a licensed independent social worker, she has a master’s degree in social work from University of Minnesota and a master’s degree in sociology from Illinois and a graduate certificate from the University of Minnesota. We are very happy to have you here. Welcome.

Amelia Franck Meyer 2:42
Thank you. My pleasure to be here.

Sandra Morgan 2:44
Well, when you did your workshop for us at the Ensure Justice Conference, the title of your workshop was “Stop Blaming the Victim.” We talked about the kinds of baggage that come with terms like “teen prostitute” and “child prostitute” and what that does so that people say things that are really just unreasonable. A clinician that says, “Well, the first time she was forced, but after that it’s her choice.” Or, “Well, if she’s dressed like that, what does she expect?” So we have lots of evidence that people do blame the victim and we have people who are trying to be part of the solution that even blame the victim because she doesn’t follow through on what we advised her to do. What we want to hear from you today is why we shouldn’t blame the victim. What is her experience? What can we do to better understand the victim?

Amelia Franck Meyer 3:48
Well, I’m just struck with this group of girls, how much it reminds me of the Stockholm Syndrome and the work that’s been done around that where victims actually identify with their abusers as a protective mechanism. It’s a normal healthy brain response to captive trauma. When I hear words like “teen prostitute”, I get a little cringed hearing those because there is an implied meaning that it’s a trade, that it’s voluntary or chosen, that if she just wanted to leave she could. Clearly, this does not really emphasize the impact of trauma and fear. There’s so many things we can relate to this kind of experience for girls in terms of kidnap victims, prisoners of war, Elizabeth Smart, Patty Hurst, the experience of folks who are kept not in their will, eventually stop trying to leave because of fear and trauma. This is something that we do as human beings when we’re in these life or death situations, which in many cases, this is for these girls. We find ways to survive. Using terms like that, that implie some level of trade, profound impact that is common here, you’ll hear the same kinds of things, “Why didn’t they just leave?” Because there is a very pervasive technique of fear and humiliation and degradation that is used to make sure that they feel like they can’t leave, that they might die, or someone close to them might die, or something terrible would happen to them. This is a kind of brainwashing or occulting that goes on, to help to alter the thinking and the ability, and will of folks so that they stay in these environments, out of fear. They stay in these environments as a matter of survival.

Sandra Morgan 5:59
So when we were ending our last podcast, we were citing some of the problems that these kids have, that are brought out of being commercially sexually exploited. Besides the sexually transmitted diseases, PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, seems to be one of the common factors. And you just mentioned the trauma associated with this, with rape. Can you speak to that?

Amelia Franck Meyer 6:32
Well, a lot of the work that I do in child welfare centers around loss, grief and loss, and responding to trauma from that perspective. That is what I think about when I think about these girls in terms of the trauma aspect, and what girls are left with as a result of this. You talked about some of the physical and health implications and those are quite serious in many, many cases and have lifelong impacts. But the the other pieces are the incredible grief that comes around the losses, and I’ll just name a few off the top of my head, really not having intensive experience in this area, but knowing how closely it relates to the girls that I work with as well. The loss of innocence, the loss of being a kid, the loss of time that has gone by and what you have missed in your family life, in your own community and with your siblings, the loss of respect, the loss of dignity, the loss of human relationships that have been damaged through this time. These are things that in many situations are unrecoverable. So feeling like it is not only the experience at that moment, that one has endured the fear, the pain, the humiliation. It’s not only that, but it is all the things that were supposed to be there for a 12 year old, that were supposed to be in that space, that were replaced by those things. Playing, connecting, learning how to interact with boys in a healthy and innocent way, family connections, having your parents feel proud of you, academic achievement, the experience of going to the pool with your friends at the summer. All the stuff that was supposed to be in that space is taken. And that, the loss of those human connections, the loss of that experience, the loss of that dignity, the loss of that respect is so profound. That in itself is incredible trauma. Then when you think about what got put in place of those things that are supposed to be there for a normal, healthy growing experience for a young girl, and what they had to do instead, that trauma is so complex that it will have pervasive effects.

Sandra Morgan 9:06
Wow, when you start making a list of the loss of those kinds of childhood memories around family vacations and going swimming, I think of a little girl’s first school dance. She’s supposed to learn how to wait to be asked to dance. Wow.

Amelia Franck Meyer 9:28
Learning to bake with your mom, riding a bike, your pet. I mean, you name it. It’s that that wondrous experience, when it’s done in a healthy way, that wondrous experience of childhood. All that wonder, all that innocence, just completely robbed. So when you talk about rape, it is the raping of childhood.

Dave 9:51
And it’s interesting too, when we think about the list that you just mentioned Amelia, Sandie, I think back to the topic we talked about on our last podcast about the importance of the terminology that we utilize. Many of the things that Amelia has just listed here would be, could be substantially different if we use different terminology in how we describe the situations that these young children have been in. Many of these things, like the loss of respect, you know, would just be very different if our society had different language to process, how we have dialogue about this.

Amelia Franck Meyer 10:31
Absolutely. What I’ve just been really taken aback by I guess, is, since being at the conference with you, Sandie, and presenting, I’ve come back home to my, my home community in the Twin Cities, Minneapolis and St. Paul, and I’ve just started to learn what’s happening and what’s going on, and what are the services. I was really hoping to come back home and find that somebody was taking care of this, and I could go back to my child welfare experience. Instead, I’m just finding how much needs to be done there and how overlapping these areas are that these are our girls. I’m working with girls who have found themselves in traumatic situations and a lot of cases dealing with their losses. They’re so vulnerable to this kind of experience and so vulnerable to this, because of this basic human need to be long. It’s the same kind of thing that attracts our young men into gangs, and there’s that missing component when you have trauma, with a lack of healthy human connections with adults, when you’re a child. The vulnerability that that creates for our youth is very frightening to me. What’s really been taking me aback in learning about these services is that people do not discuss these girls. I have talked to folks in many different levels of the system, but we don’t talk about them as children in need of protection. They are children in need of protection. This is, to me akin to starving children stealing a loaf of bread, and incarcerating them, instead of trying to alleviate their hunger. I mean, I think people would just be outraged at that. I mean, I think society would be outraged that you have starving children who steal food for survival and in fact, we’re incarcerated and labeled and re-victimized because of that act of survival.

Sandra Morgan 12:30
So we need to, to re-frame how we see these children. They’re looking instead of for bread, because they’re hungry, they’re looking for belonging. They are hungry for the feeling of belonging.

Amelia Franck Meyer 12:45
That’s right. A child in need of protection, is one who, in most cases, and I know there are some differences for some girls, but in most cases, do not have a healthy adult who is protecting their safety and well being. They cannot do that for themselves, they are children. They will find places to garner that protection. This is one of the things that happens.

Sandra Morgan 13:11
So how are we going to change that experience for children in need of protection?

Amelia Franck Meyer 13:16
I’m just really thinking of them as children. Rather than, I think when we start talking about a “teen prostitute” or “girl prostitute”, that’s a whole different thing that gets conjured up. They are children in need of protection. I’m really thinking about, you know, I hear stories about, “Well, she was 15. So she was released to live with her uncle who was really her pimp or what have you.” Would we release a three year old in that same situation? Without really evaluating that adults need and ability to keep that child safe? Because, in fact, these girls in many cases, those who have experienced trauma or been victims of trauma, on the outside might be 15. But really, they have not developed on the same kind of linear path as a child who has had different experiences. They’re underdeveloped in a lot of ways, and they’re stuck at many of those ages where that trauma happened.

Sandra Morgan 14:14
Okay, so then I look at this girl, I think I’m talking to a 15 year old, but if I could see inside her mind, I’m really talking to an 11 year old?

Amelia Franck Meyer 14:24
That’s right, or a six year old. It’s not all parts of her, some parts are 15. But parts that were impacted by the trauma, including some of her thought processes, decision making ability from the emotional capacities are younger.

Sandra Morgan 14:41
So what can we do when we encounter this 15 year old besides put her in a safe place, which has for the most part been identified as juvenile detention? Does that meet her emotional needs? Loaded question. Sorry.

Amelia Franck Meyer 15:01
I view a lot of these children through the lens of loss, right? So there is healing that needs to happen. In talking to one rescued victim, she said, “I don’t think police should show up, I think ambulance should show up to come get us. We have been really harmed. We need treatment and healing.” I think a lot about how you go to juvenile detention, and you turn the key and you open it up. There’s carpet, clean bedspreads, and stuffed animals. We start working on grieving these intense losses and start to work on what the thinking patterns that victims helped to create, to identify with their abuser, for survival. We start undoing some of that kind of thinking, and grieving some of these losses, and treating these children, like we understand what has happened, which is: they have been, I don’t care what they say, I don’t care if they say it was willingly, they are children, they can’t make a willing choice in that way. We know that about other laws of statutory kinds of things that children under 18 cannot make these decisions for themselves, I don’t care what comes out of their mouth, they don’t have the capacity yet to do it and they’re victims of trauma. Really understanding that these children need healing, they need safe space to grieve, they need our assistance in helping them to unravel and sort out what the heck has happened to them, how it happened, what it meant, what parts they want to heal and leave behind, what parts of them are resilient and will be stronger that they can bring with them and what does this mean in terms of going forward? It takes very special people to do that work, who are deeply committed to understanding that the behaviors you will see from them are the result of trauma.

Sandra Morgan 17:01
So how do we create that kind of environment for a child? Is it even possible for us to do that? How much time is it going to take?

Amelia Franck Meyer 17:11
Well, I’ve been working on that idea Sandie. I’m not one to tell you things are impossible, you’ve come to the wrong person. I’m more about how and when is it possible? I think there is a significant mind shift that needs to happen, because there are laws in place to protect children in these ways and there are funding streams in place to protect children. But if you start seeing them as criminals and juvenile justice problems, who chose this, it’s a lot different. Shifting that thinking and understanding that these are victims of trauma for children in need of protection, changes the whole game. Finding secure, safe ways to keep these children safe from the threats that present themselves, while we do some of this healing work, it’s very possible. I’m not sure exactly what that looks like but I will tell you, I’ve talked with a lot of colleagues about that, in terms of “Do these youth need a safe and secure, locked facility in which they can do healing, until they understand some of what’s happened to them and are more open to some of the healing?” Then have less restrictive environments where they could be a part of grieving their losses and experiencing a safe place to do that.

Sandra Morgan 18:27
So starting with a lockdown facility, basically,

Amelia Franck Meyer 18:32
One that’s very different than any that you’ve ever seen.

Sandra Morgan 18:35
Okay. Okay, so how long do you think that, say a 14 year old who had gone through this, would need in that kind of facility?

Amelia Franck Meyer 18:45
I’m not really sure and I think it might be an experiment, because I don’t know.

Sandra Morgan 18:50
I know people are working on trying to make something like that happen but at this point, it’s very much a hope.

Amelia Franck Meyer 18:58
Right. It might be different for every girl. I don’t know that that’s prescribed and I don’t know that it’s been tried. I sure think we ought to start trying more akin to cure healing facility rather than a juvenile lockdown.

Dave 19:16
I think that this speaks to one of the challenges too, whenever we talk about laws being broken, regardless who’s doing them the legal system’s involved and there are certain standards that need to be addressed. The reality is one of the things Amelia just said, you know, every person is different, every situation is unique. It really is going to require all of us to be able to look at this through a lens of really looking at each person as a person versus just looking at the person as a number or just a criminal report.

Sandra Morgan 19:55
And Amelia, you talked about this special kind of person it takes to be there for this victim in the recovery process. What I’m beginning to see, and I’ve heard from what you do from Tina Feigl, from Karen Bergstrom at Olive crest, that there is a movement to prepare foster parents for these kids. How do you see that as a placement alternative, that will make a huge difference?

Amelia Franck Meyer 20:23
That’s a big piece of what my involvement is. At Anu Family Services, we’re really focused on building healthy connections, healthy, permanent connections for kids, and are having great success at that. These kinds of kids are particularly in need of folks who understand trauma and grief and loss, which is what our foster parents are intensively trained in. I think, you know, with another layer of understanding the circumstances that these children have gone through, so some additional training, but really a strong basis in trauma and grief and loss will be critical to understanding the healing that needs to happen here and how to guide that healing while creating safe environments. I’ve met amazing people capable of creating sanctuary space for that kind of healing in their own home.

Sandra Morgan 21:16
I think one of the things that I want people to take away from listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast on a regular basis, is that there is something we each can do. It may not be to become the CEO to build that safe environment, that lockdown facility that’s going to require all kinds of staff and security measures. But it may be becoming a parent to one child.

Amelia Franck Meyer 21:46
Absolutely, or a mentor. Maybe not even in your home if you’re not able, but a stable constant mentor. We just know from research and our own good common sense that kids fare better when they’re connected to loving, stable adults. We know this. There’s a lot more information on that on my website at www.anufs.org. We talked about our grief and loss model there with Dr. Darla Henry and we talked about some of the great outcomes we’ve seen when you can create that space for kids to do their grieving.

Sandra Morgan 22:25
We’ll put that website on our show notes too. Because we want people to see that model and even if you’re not in that area, begin to ask those questions and create space for that conversation in your community and bring experts like Amelia to help with the training for that, like we did at Ensure Justice this year. The last question is: Before they become commercially sexually exploited children, they often were already in the system. They often had already been in some kind of foster care, some kind of group home. They had already been pulled from a toxic environment in their own community. So they still have all the same grief and loss issues, it sounds like . How do we do a better job of identifying those kids and doing special foster placement?

Amelia Franck Meyer 23:20
We have a larger societal obligation to kids to say something when we see something that isn’t right, and to do our best to keep our eyes open and protecting and valuing children and looking them in the eye and saying hello, when you pass them on the street and really voting, advocating, and living in a way that respects children and values them for what they are, instead of seeing them as problems. I think just in general, that’s important to do. I believe that you are correct that so much of this comes from other trauma, early trauma and so many of the kids we see, boys and girls in foster care have come from environments of trauma, many of whom have been abused and neglected, often sexually abused, which opens the doors to this more commercial kinds of abuse. We mentioned some of the things to do in terms of being a mentor, becoming a foster parent, or really taking an active interest in finding ways to respect and value children because we don’t in a lot of ways in our society and really opening our eyes. I’ll just close with a really quick story. A friend of mine said she went to see a Cirque De Soleil and there were a bunch of youth groups there and she took her kids there. Then shows up the stripper on the 50 foot stripper pole and did a 15 minute dance scantily dressed on the pole. She just wanted to stand up and scream, “There are children here!” It was billed as a children’s show, lots of people were there with children and nobody seemed to flinch. Nobody seemed to think there was anything wrong with that and everything in her said, “What are we doing?” I just invite folks to open their eyes a little bit more and take a look around at what our kids are seeing, what our kids are experiencing too. There are all sorts of ways to protect and engage children.

Sandra Morgan 25:06
Wow. Sounds like a big job and we are glad that you are on it, Amelia.

Amelia Franck Meyer 25:11
Thank you. I’ve appreciated my time and ability to talk a little bit with you about this.

Sandra Morgan 25:19
Thank you so much for listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. I hope you enjoyed this rebroadcast and took away from the points made by Dr. Amelia Franck, I look forward to seeing you again in two weeks.

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Dr. Delaney Ruston joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss parenting strategies in the digital age, focusing on mental health, communication, and her book Parenting in the Screen Age . Delaney Ruston, MD Dr. Delaney Ruston is a physician and award-winning filmmaker renowned for her impactful documentaries, including the Screenagers series, which explores the intersection of technology and youth well-being. She has appeared on numerous media outlets discussing screen time, mental health, and parenting in the digital age. Dr. Ruston also hosts the Screenagers podcast and blog, offering practical advice to families navigating digital challenges. Her work is driven by a passion for fostering open conversations about mental health and technology’s role in our lives. Key Points Dr. Ruston’s book, Parenting in the Screen Age , provides science-based strategies for calm and productive conversations about technology between parents and children. She emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries around screen time, citing its impact on mental health and sleep. Validation is a key parenting skill discussed in the book, helping children feel understood without necessarily condoning their behavior. The concept of a “Vulnerable Village” encourages collective action among parents and communities to delay smartphone and social media use for children. Dr. Ruston recommends “Tech Talk Tuesdays,” a family tradition of having short weekly conversations about technology to build understanding and establish boundaries. She highlights the importance of balancing screen time with other enriching activities like creative projects, in-person interactions, and outdoor play. The book provides guidance on creating collaborative family media plans that incorporate sleep time, family time, and study time rules. Dr. Ruston shares her experience with her daughter’s mental health struggles, offering insights into how open conversations and community support can make a difference. The Screenagers films and associated blogs provide additional resources for parents and communities to address digital challenges collectively. Dr. Ruston advocates for using science-based parenting techniques and communication strategies to navigate the complexities of raising children in the digital age. Resources Screenagers Movie Website Parenting in the Screen Age: A Guide for Calm Conversations Screenagers Podcast Transcript [00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 337, Dr. Delaney Rustin and Parenting in the Screen Age. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. [00:00:33] Sandie: Dr. Delaney Rustin is a physician and award winning filmmaker renowned for her impactful documentaries, including the ScreenAgers series, now comprising four films that explore the intersection of technology and youth well being. [00:00:53] Sandie: She has appeared on numerous media outlets discussing screen time, mental health, and parenting in the digital age. She is the voice behind the Screenagers podcast. and blog and offers practical advice to families navigating digital challenges. Her work is driven by a passion for fostering open conversations about mental health and technology’s role in our lives. [00:01:26] Sandie: Today, we’re going to talk about her book, Parenting in the Screen Age, a guide for calm conversations. [00:01:35] Sandie: I am so happy to have Dr. Delaney Rustin with us for this episode of Ending Human Trafficking. Welcome. [00:01:45] Delaney: Oh, it’s wonderful, Sandy, to be here. Thank you. [00:01:48] Sandie: We are, let me just tell everybody that in our next Insure Justice, March 7th and 8th, we’re going to be screening the movie Screenagers. And I’m excited now to have this interview to talk with Dr. Rustin about her book. And do you want to kind of give us a snapshot of the book and why you wrote it? [00:02:18] Delaney: Oh, absolutely. I, 12 years ago, was really struggling at home with my two kids who wanted more and more screen time. And I had been doing documentaries on mental health issues. And I found that the mental health, if you could say that in our family, the stress was so high. And I felt completely confused on what to do. [00:02:44] Delaney: I didn’t, [00:02:48] Delaney: So I started to wonder as a doctor who takes care of teens and adults, what I could do to look for solutions. And I started to make the first Greenagers movie. which is called Screen Readers Growing Up in the Digital Age, which came out in 2016, although we just re released it, updated. Since then, there’s been three other documentaries. [00:03:14] Delaney: During the time that I became much more knowledgeable, as I went on this journey to help my family, my kids, my patients, I In making these films, learned so much that I realized it would be really helpful to parents to have this information in a book. I did my residency at San Francisco and I stayed on for a couple years to do research on human to human communication. [00:03:45] Delaney: The ways that we can more effectively use communication for good, as well as in your world, how communication can be manipulative and take advantage of people. Well, I want to be opposite. How do we as parents use techniques that understand the development of our children, understand our struggles to not be triggered by our intense emotions that we have in parenting this, and use that knowledge of communication science? [00:04:15] Delaney: Along with everything I’ve been learning in making the documentaries and to put that in a book called Parenting in the Screen Age. [00:04:24] Sandie: I would recommend highly listeners that you go and look for your closest bookstore, go on Amazon. and order this book. even if you’re not currently raising young people, it’s a great tool to share in, in your community. Grandparents would value this as well. So, because my community, I’m a grandparent. [00:04:53] Sandie: And grandparents are really concerned about their grandchildren growing up in a digital age. So I’ve started recommending it to all the grandmas and grandpas. So let’s talk about the book. How did you lay it out? And can I say parenting in the screen age and the subtitle? I love a guide for calm conversations. [00:05:16] Sandie: Because when I talk to parents who are intensely. In the middle of this right now and having flaming arguments about you can’t take that away. And, and I’ve talked to parents who have decided to shut down the internet at their house at eight o’clock at night. I’ve talked to parents who gave up and their kids don’t have any supervision. [00:05:43] Sandie: And I often, correlate this with how we teach our kids to be safe on the streets. We started, we, when they were toddlers and could walk, and we held their hand and we said, you walk across the street when there is a crosswalk. So there’s, there’s boundaries, there’s guardrails for how you do this, and it’s not the same rule from the time you’re three years old until you’re 13. [00:06:11] Sandie: When you’re 13, you’re walking across the crosswalk by yourself. So this book for calm conversation is really based on your experience in communication. So tell us how the book is broken down. [00:06:27] Delaney: Yes, and I would say what’s really important is what you just mentioned. Having boundaries and limits on the, the most attention grabbing, devices ever created is incredibly important and part of our job as parents and yet there’s all this discussion in the media, how much time is okay, how much is not. [00:06:50] Delaney: We’re not talking about the real how to. So let me give a context of first the number one thing that I say to parents which is in the book, which is there’s really no And I think it’s a better way to approach this than to have a calm conversation, whether it be once a week, which I recommend, or once every two weeks. [00:07:15] Delaney: But you really, and I’m going to say how to do this. It’s the number one thing that is in the book and that I have still now on the stage and working in my clinic room, whatever the audience is, how valuable and vital this is. And the reason it is so important is that every day there is new things in the, in the internet age that is impacting all of us. [00:07:45] Delaney: There are good things and there are hard things. And we get to work with our kids to have them be incredible, critical consumers of all that’s happening. And Work with them to make sure they have a very full life and it’s not overly consumed by the digital age. I made a lot of mistakes and I’m going to be telling you some of them in this interview. [00:08:11] Delaney: I’m going to start by saying in, we call it in our home and now I have eight years of blog that helps a lot of parents, which is called Tech Talk Tuesdays. And the idea is to have a short five minute conversation with our families once a week about technology. But I was doing it wrong when we started. I was just wanting to focus on the problems. [00:08:34] Delaney: And in fact, my daughter, when we gave her a smartphone, which by the way I would have delayed longer had I been able to know better, and And I shouldn’t say just no better, if we could have done it as a collective community to all delay. And I say that in the updated version now. Ultimately though, when I gave that to her, we also gave her a contract. [00:08:58] Delaney: And we tried to get her to, put in there what she wanted also. And so that it would be a collaborative. She just tuned out. She didn’t want to talk about it. She didn’t want to do it. It was a real What didn’t go well, I realized that I hadn’t validated enough of the reasons why she wanted to use technology. [00:09:19] Delaney: It’s this, it’s the same reality that people want to be understood as much as they want what they think they want. [00:09:27] Sandie: you, can you describe what you mean by validated? [00:09:32] Delaney: Yes, I needed to say to Tessa, wow, tell me more about why you love being on Snapchat with your friends. And then she would tell me and I would actually repeat back some of it. Oh, okay, you, you really, it does feel good when you’re invited into a Snapchat group that you feel really like and I’ll try to use her same words. [00:09:53] Delaney: I want her to Really see that I get it doesn’t mean I agree with it doesn’t mean that I’m condoning it and say that’s fantastic Let’s get you more time on [00:10:02] Sandie: Ah, ha, ha, [00:10:04] Delaney: It’s just that she’s seen. Oh my mom gets it She’s not just saying oh you should not ever use that whatever because then she’s then the brain writes that person off Then they feel justified in their conscious and unconscious to say, Oh, I’m not going to listen to how we’re trying to do this safely and limit the amount of time because my mom doesn’t get it. [00:10:27] Sandie: Hmm. [00:10:29] Delaney: And it’s the same way, for example, as a doctor. Let’s say I have a parent who brings in their 10 year old, 11 year old who has an earache. And I look in there and I see it’s a little inflamed, but it really, the whole, everything fits that it’s a virus and doesn’t need antibiotics. I’ll say back to the parent, actually, I’m usually talking with the child because it’s a wonderful, uh, and the parent keeps wanting to, to speak up, but I just love to not talk down, but really, I’m going to be repeating back, I’ll say, wow, so your daughter she’s had feeling achy and she just doesn’t feel right and, and she’s not eating well and she has a runny nose. [00:11:16] Delaney: That’s hard. She has a lot of stuff going on. It’s only after that. Then the parent, if I say, you know what, I’m from all my 30 years as a doctor, I can tell we’re actually going to do more harm at this point if we give antibiotics, because all the symptoms align with this being and the epidemiology with this being the viral. [00:11:36] Delaney: So the point being the parent was heard, so she’s not going to leave the office and be mad that doctor, she just didn’t hear me. She didn’t understand how sick you felt. [00:11:45] Sandie: Hmm. [00:11:45] Delaney: validation is The central, central theme because as parents we are indeed so worried and we have a right to be. There’s lots of things to be worried, but what’s most important, we might be right, but are we effective? [00:12:02] Delaney: And when we use validation, communication skills like that, we become much more effective. So when you mention the book in terms of what are the ways that, things that I make sure to include in the book, I love to talk about the three V’s. One is validate. The next next one is values, and then we’ll get to vulnerable village [00:12:25] Sandie: Oh, this sounds fun. Values. [00:12:28] Delaney: values are talking about what are the things that we as individuals in the family value, as well as as a family. I don’t like to say our family values without. Having the kids be thinking about what do they value because I I never want to speak for other people But once it’s been discussed like oh, do we all kind of agree that? [00:12:52] Delaney: Being kind to people is a value and and then you can have that discussion. And so like yeah, but do we also You know, value, honesty, and so sometimes that might be that we’re not going to, we have to say something to someone that might not be as nice as we want to be. Values as parents is, I need to value, I need to parent with integrity. [00:13:16] Delaney: That’s a key element. For me as a parent, I have to be science based, I have to look at evidence of things, and I have to do what I really think is the right, right thing. I value. People’s input. And that means you, Tessa, and um, my daughter, I value your input into figuring out how we ensure safety and not excessive screen time. [00:13:41] Delaney: And, and then, and then, for example, I value, because of science, your guys sleep. And, you know what? This is a non negotiable. We need to have technology out of the bedrooms for sleep time. But here, Sandy, is where some of that validation comes in. Like, but I know that’s hard. I know that you are really, you’re really Empathic. [00:14:07] Delaney: You would love to be there for your friends at any time. I, I see how it’s uncomfortable when you can’t respond. If you have a friend who’s going through a hard time and might, just, you want to know that they could call someone, could, you could give them my number. Can they call me? And I, and we could talk about maybe I’d go and get you if it’s not bedtime yet. [00:14:25] Delaney: So it’s working together. And with that values, I say, Tess, I, I need I want your input and there’s some collaboration. I think the devices should go away at nine o’clock. You’re 13, 14. You know, I think that time you should be off by then. She might say, mom, no, that’s too early. 9. 30 or 10, or she might say 10. [00:14:48] Delaney: And we say, let’s, let’s do 9. 30 and we’ll check in in two weeks. Let’s put this on the refrigerator as a, one of the things we’ll talk about on Tech Talk Tuesdays. So that’s where the values that all of this is. I value Tessa, your incredible creativity. I, that’s why a big part of why we’re limiting screen time because screen time is really And I’m talking about screen time as a treat, there’s a tool and there’s the treat part of it. [00:15:17] Delaney: And the treat is really a lot of consuming, a lot of chit chat with friends, which is important, but there can be excessive, that can come at a cost. and so I, in terms of that treat time of consuming, I want to make sure, Tessa, you’re using your incredible heart and brain to produce your own life, your own things. [00:15:40] Delaney: In person relationships with calling grandma, with, talking to, having some time to just, you’re outside and you end up just chatting with the neighbor. You’re doing your own painting. In fact, you can, you, the listeners can’t see [00:15:54] Sandie: Yeah. [00:15:54] Delaney: My daughter just left to go back to college and my Christmas present in a card was, Mom, you can, you can have me paint, any painting you want me to do. [00:16:03] Delaney: And so on my wall there, is this beautiful landscape of Paris with the Eiffel Tower done out of, yeah, that she painted for me. And I got to direct it. I’m like, oh, I’d love to have that a little softer sage green. Can we do that? It was looking a little pink on the sky and still has some pink. So that’s about values. [00:16:23] Delaney: And then Vulnerable Village is one that luckily I was just talking to Jonathan Haidt yesterday that we’re doing, talking about different collaborations and he has a book, Anxious Generation, and he’s in two of the Screen Readers documentaries. [00:16:37] Sandie: And he was on your podcast recently. So we’ll put a link to that interview, in the show notes for our conversation today. So, so we’ve got validate, values, and the third V we’re moving into. [00:16:53] Delaney: it’s, I like to call it Vulnerable Village, so you could say that’s, yes, so Vulnerable Village is something I came up with years ago around this and the reason I bring up Jonathan Haidt is so much of this needs to be done collectively. For example, if we’re going to delay smartphones, if our daughter or son or however they self identify don’t have that device and everyone, very, a lot of their close friends do, they’re in a pickle. [00:17:21] Delaney: And it’s not to say they still can’t work, it absolutely can. They can use the computers and be able to Text and communicate with friends and whatnot, but better yet ideally as a community of parents we decide hey, let’s all delay smartphones until and And so this collective action concept is really being heightened by Jonathan Haidt who actually is being very Concrete, which he, which in terms of creating new social norms, is to delay giving smartphones until the beginning of high school and actually delay two years longer social media, which would be like the age you start driving if you’re getting the license at 16. [00:18:06] Delaney: So that the, and he is very, he knows, as all of us know, this has to be done collectively because There’s, if we don’t start now with younger parents of younger kids, it becomes, much harder to do later on. Now, it’s not to say, the point is, even if our kids, and many do, have social media and, and smartphones, and social media, honestly, is now on the computers in all sorts of forms, that we can still do the work that I’m talking about. [00:18:35] Delaney: We can still very much do helping our kids be safer online and have, and prevent excessive. Screen time. So Vulnerable Village, and I’ll give concrete examples of what I mean, when I was making the first Screenagers movie, my daughter was in seventh grade and many of the kids already back then had a phone. [00:18:59] Delaney: and I. I was really surprised how nervous I was, but I called the other parents and I said, can we make it a tech free carpool? And you’d, yeah, and you’d think that I like, here I am, I’m pretty outgoing, you know, I wouldn’t be feeling nervous, but I really thought I’m going to be judged as like the overly controlling, the, you know, anxious, worried parent. [00:19:27] Delaney: Fortunately, the other parents were immediately on board, which is great. I’m not saying that will always happen, but they did. And having the kids get in the car and hearing them talk and just then, and then now and then I could say a little, I got to know them a little bit better. You know, her friends was such a gift because otherwise free time becomes screen time. [00:19:51] Delaney: It’s that much of a pull and when we have clear loving boundaries, we do so much service and goodness for our kids. It gets a little bit trickier with some of the other things that we ask. For example, my daughter in Screenagers next chapter, which deals with mental health. Problems in the digital age, and most importantly, as all of my films in the book does, focuses on solutions. [00:20:20] Delaney: So it, that film looks at depression symptoms, all the way to clinical depression, anxiety, stress, how it’s What are some of the factors to think about how this is all playing out in the digital age? And most importantly, each one of the stories has great science slipped into the film and then also really wonderful experts talking about solutions. [00:20:45] Delaney: Unfortunately, but this is life, my daughter had a lot of clinical depression in high school. And she was so loving, she let me film a little bit of that and, and at the end I said, Tessa, do you want to be in this film? Because you don’t need to be, there’s plenty of stories, there’s plenty of science. And she said, and she watched the rough cut and she said, mom, when I see how much it helps me to hear these other. [00:21:11] Delaney: Kids talking and saying how things got better. It helps me so much I definitely want to be in the film and she never looked back. She started talking after the film She joined the suicide prevention club in her school and the list goes on But what I’m about to, that, that was, getting a little bit off track, but when she was doing very poorly, she wasn’t able to do the things that she loved to do. [00:21:35] Delaney: And one is be around kids. She loves, in fact, she loves babysitting and she wasn’t reaching out to anyone and she was just hiding and no one in her room at times. And so I went to, A neighbor who she would babysit for and I said, Christy, I said, Tess is not doing so well. She has depression and she’s just not able to advocate for herself. [00:21:56] Delaney: Would you be able to? Ask her to babysit and I immediately, I felt kind of bad that I, because I, I go, but I can pay you to pay, give her money. I didn’t mean for them to have to like go out and pay a babysitter, you know? And she’s like, I’m so glad you asked me Delaney. Of course, I would love to. And she did start asking Tessa to babysit more. [00:22:17] Delaney: And it’s one of the pieces of the puzzle is my work for 20 years in mental health advocacy is not just, Like being able ourselves to talk about, but for all of us to get better at being a vulnerable village of how to reach out to help others or to ask for help as a parent. [00:22:36] Sandie: so So, this element of mental health, it’s a whole chapter in the book and, and I think this integrated approach to helping parents have conversations with their kids is what I really valued about this. It is science based, but so many of the guides that I’ve. encountered. They’re about, Oh, here are the risks of social media. [00:23:04] Sandie: Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. This is not probably going to be very effective with, from an adolescent development perspective. So the, the idea specifically in the mental health is helping parents figure out how to have those kinds of conversations. And, It’s like one of the most valuable chapters in the book from my perspective. [00:23:30] Sandie: But, in those conversations, the, later in the book, you’re halfway through and you get to the contracts and family rules. [00:23:41] Sandie: Because, you know, it talks about co parenting. Because you can have rules, but then, unfortunately, sometimes they go to Grandma and Grandpa’s house or Auntie’s, and they have different rules. [00:23:53] Delaney: and that’s perfectly fine. That’s perfectly fine. I think, I’m so glad, Sandy, that you’re bringing up grandparents a lot because I’ve written about grandparents and that they very much have a role in this and they often feel disempowered. Like, okay, if they bring over that iPad, nothing I can say. [00:24:12] Sandie: Hmm. [00:24:13] Delaney: Power to the grandparent who takes that time to have some calm conversations with the parents, beforehand and talk about as well as with the young people and, and defining it. [00:24:25] Delaney: Ultimately, people do better when they know the rules. And better yet, if they can have a say in them, that’s fantastic. Our world is full of rules. Our kids are going into a world Full of this is okay. This is not. Thank goodness. We have understandings of what’s okay, and what’s not. We know Trafficking people is not okay. [00:24:52] Delaney: We know violence against women and females is absolutely not Okay, we have put lots of safeguards in place. Do things go awry? Do people go against what we know and what we work hard to establish? Yes! That’s why you’re doing all the incredible work that you’re doing. Our kids will do better when they know, and they help to, when they will, create the boundaries. [00:25:22] Delaney: I like to say that there are. Roughly 33 billion and two fun things to do on a screen so that the biggest issue is it makes perfect sense that they want to be on it and play games with their friends and, and look for, you know, more ways to do cool things and watch this show and watch it again and again and a thousand YouTube shorts. [00:25:49] Delaney: It makes sense, but it makes perfect sense that we also need to have concrete limits around this. Now, I tend to, I used to say contract, and um, you can see in the film how that came to be the concept of a contract from a woman who went viral having done one with iPhone Janelle. But I often will say a media plan, a family media plan, a, a, Collaborative contract. [00:26:21] Delaney: So you can use the word contract, but the idea is for, for us, we really had sleep time, family time, and study time. That’s not just, and I’ll say it’s sleep time, as I mentioned, it’s both a combination of devices out of the bedroom for sleep, even through high school, and That is so science based on all the, so many reasons why. [00:26:45] Delaney: that also has to do with what time devices are put away as they get ready for sleep time. And so families, one of the biggest issues is homework. That the kid will say, Oh, I still have homework. When you have a set boundary, devices are, go away at nine, they know they have to get their work done or they’re going to be showing up at school. [00:27:05] Delaney: And kids don’t want to fail. They don’t want to not succeed. And you’ve got to help them if they keep not doing their homework because they were putting it off and they said, well, I’m not going to do it because it screens go away. Then like we have a, we have a problem as a family and, and let’s figure this out. [00:27:18] Delaney: Let’s, why don’t we go to the counselor together or whatever that is. So that’s sleep time. Family time is like, no devices are away. At mealtimes when we go away for a day on a Saturday or Sunday or something, device is left at home. So my daughter, still to this day, she’s just home from college, she will say, I’m gonna leave my phone at home, mom. [00:27:39] Delaney: You sit and it’s just more relaxing. She likes it. She likes the breaks.you, other fam, there’s other family, we’re playing, we’re watching a movie, we’re not going to double screen for our family night, we’re not going to all be on our screens. And, and then for study time, which is another hard one, that for us, for example, Tessa’s, when she had that, smart phone was out of the room and she could take breaks, but it’s not right by her. [00:28:08] Delaney: Um, and so I’ve written about all of that in the book, all sorts of other concrete ways of doing this, but I want to get back to, um, so that’s an example of why, and what, why having a, Plan and set rules is important. Now. I talk a lot about what what does that mean when rules aren’t followed all the time? [00:28:31] Delaney: They’re not gonna be followed all the time. So what do you do in those situations? Like that’s where we really need the help and that’s where other chapters look at that but I do want to make sure in our remaining time that we touch on some of the parenting skills around mental health challenges and I want to talk about First and foremost, three points about emotions that we can do, all of us, right now. [00:28:56] Delaney: Whether there’s mental health problems in the home or not. And I’m going to assume right now, the general big population, putting aside any significant mental health problems, even if they are there, in fact, this still works. And the first is, emotions just happen. And You can, it’s also thoughts just happen, but I am constantly working with my kids and kids that I work with, like, Nope, there, and I’ll bring it up. [00:29:27] Delaney: Oh, there comes that jealousy thought I just had about someone. Oh, there comes this wave of feeling sad. I wonder what it’s, what I’m feeling it for, and so as parents to model that to say, Oh, I’m having this emotion that comes up and talking to our kids who are saying, I’m feeling. Helping them to think of the name, the feeling that they’re having and say, huh, I wonder where that came from and that we don’t control it because kids feel very self punishing for the emotions and thoughts they have. [00:30:06] Delaney: They feel really bad about feeling less than. feel really bad about feeling mad at and the problem is that prevents them from doing the number one thing that helps us to get out of stuck hard places which is feeling shame. Lists enough, it’s unwarranted shame is what people are feeling. Having enough self efficacy to say, I need help or this is what’s happening inside of me. [00:30:38] Delaney: And if I had a dime for every time a patient says to me, I haven’t ever said this to somebody else. I would be a millionaire. So, that ability to help our kids name their emotions, help them understand that emotions and thoughts just come, there’s no judgment to that, and modeling our emotions to our kids, both the ones that are just coming up, we’re not sure what they are, Or, and often, why we’re feeling, what emotions we’re having. [00:31:13] Delaney: I love in, in Screenagers next chapter, Laura Kastner says, she’s a wonderful expert and written many parenting books, says, how is it that we expect our kids to go to their dads and talk about their jealousy or feeling less than on the sports team when the dad is never talking to them about their emotional internal experiences? [00:31:39] Sandie: So, my mind is racing now and there is so much more. We have to have another conversation, Dr. Reston. I want our listeners to know that if you’re at Insure Justice, March 7th and 8th, we’re going to be doing the new version of Screenagers. We’re doing a screening and we’re inviting parents. And as we sign off today, can you tell us where to find the resources that we’ve talked about? [00:32:15] Delaney: So, anyone can go to Screenagersmovie. com. The blog is right there and it has a search bar, so look up anything that you want and you’ll get the blog, but it’ll also bring up podcasts, and so I’ve done multiple podcast episodes on all of these. Again, the whole idea. People can find the trailers to all four of the documentaries and how to bring it to their community. [00:32:42] Delaney: Because what we have been doing now for eight years and have had millions and millions of people in this country and other countries. come together, kids and adults and in schools and out of schools, seeing the film with all the solutions and then saying, okay, what other solutions can we be doing and how do we implement these things? [00:33:04] Delaney: Collective community action is where this is all going to get, make things get much better. [00:33:12] Sandie: I am so grateful and I’m going to leave this conversation thinking about the three V’s, validate, values, and our village. And I look forward to Communicating, um, developing our relationships and working together to end human trafficking. Thank you so much, Dr. Rustin. [00:33:33] Delaney: Thank you, Sandy. It was a delight. [00:33:35] Thank you, Dr. Delaney Rustin. I encourage our listeners to check out her book and visit the Screenagers website. We are also inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking. [00:33:54] org. That’s where you can find resources we’ve mentioned in this conversation. And so much more things like the anti human trafficking certificate program here at the global center. And if you haven’t visited that site before, this is a great time to take the first step, become a subscriber, and you’ll receive an email with the show notes. [00:34:21] When a new episode drops, follow us on Instagram and Facebook. And of course, I’ll I’ll be back in two weeks.…
 
Christopher Diiorio joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss proactive parenting approaches that reduce children’s vulnerability to online exploitation and prevent human trafficking. Christopher Diiorio Christopher Diiorio is a supervisory special agent with Homeland Security Investigations in Washington, D.C. He specializes in combating human trafficking and child exploitation. With over two decades of law enforcement experience, Chris has been at the forefront of investigating complex cases and developing strategies to dismantle criminal networks. He is passionate about prevention and advocates for proactive parenting approaches to reduce children’s vulnerability to exploitation. Chris will also be a featured speaker at Insure Justice on March 7th and 8th, 2025. Key Points Children must be taught to become “hard targets” to protect against online exploitation. Parents should familiarize themselves with the social media platforms and apps their children use by downloading them personally. The concept of “hard targets” stems from lessons in personal safety that parents pass on to their children in real life, such as protecting wallets or purses. Parental controls on social media apps are essential tools but are underutilized by many parents. Parents should balance allowing children access to social media with supervision and clear guidelines. Blocking children entirely from social media can hinder their ability to learn safe online habits under parental guidance. Open, daily conversations between parents and children about online interactions build trust and awareness. Children need to recognize and trust their instincts when encountering abnormal online behavior. Online predators often use tactics such as creating multiple personas to manipulate and build trust with children. The dark web is not inherently evil but can be misused by bad actors to exploit children. Community collaboration, including law enforcement, schools, and parents, is crucial in preventing exploitation. Empowering parents to raise their cyber IQ and engage actively in their children’s digital lives reduces vulnerability. Resources iGuardian Transcript [00:00:00] Christopher: [00:00:00] Sandie: [00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 336. [00:00:14] Sandie: We’ll be right back. Proactive Parenting to Prevent Online Exploitation with Christopher DiIorio. [00:00:22] Sandie: My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I’m so grateful to have our guest, Christopher W. [00:00:38] Sandie: DiIorio, With us today, he is a supervisory special agent with Homeland Security Investigations in Washington, D. C. There he specializes in combating human trafficking and child exploitation. With over two decades of law enforcement experience, Chris has been at the forefront of investigating the complex cases and developing strategies to dismantle criminal networks. [00:01:12] Sandie: He is passionate about prevention and he advocates for proactive parenting approaches to reduce children’s vulnerability to exploitation. I’m excited because he’s going to be at Insure Justice March 7th and 8th, 2025. There will be a link to register to join us in the show notes. But for now, we’re going to have a conversation with Chris and demystify technology and empower our communities to take action. Welcome. [00:01:53] Christopher: Thank you, Dr. Morgan. I very much appreciate the opportunity to be here with you today. [00:01:57] Sandie: Well, let’s get started. In one of our past conversations, you mentioned the importance of making children hard targets, and that caught my imagination. We’re going to use that terminology during this podcast. What. What would it mean for you to make a child a hard target? [00:02:25] Christopher: Well, thank you very much. You’re right. I hard target is a term that I have used I don’t really remember where it came from and where it started, but it’s certainly Something that’s sort of baked into a lot of parents and teaching their kids, right? And when we were children likely it was your mom telling you when you’re on a busy subway to maybe move your purse over your Head and wear it like a shoulder bag and put it in front of you Or it was a dad telling a son to move your wallet from your backpack And and just over the course of being reared, you get to the point where your parents are making you hard targets in life. [00:02:59] Christopher: They’re teaching you these little bits of lessons. And when we start talking about technology or exploitation of children through the lens of technology, We went through an entire generation where the kids were going up with a type of technology that the parents just didn’t have or weren’t available to them, so they didn’t know how to put those lessons on to the Children to make them hard targets. [00:03:21] Christopher: So I started pretty early on in my. investigative career into child exploitation and the sexual abuse of children to start educating children and parents on how to become hard targets and sort of apply those lessons in the world or the online world [00:03:39] Sandie: So Chris, can you break down what this means and share everyday actions? parents can take to build resilience and reduce their child’s vulnerability. [00:03:53] Christopher: one of the first things that, I like to encourage with parents is getting comfortable with sort of the ecosystem or the world that their kids are going to be living in online, right? if they’re going to be using a particular type of, social media, if they’re going to be operating, on these group chats with their friends, make sure you sit down with them and explain to them that,they need to know that every person that’s on this, making sure that they understand that whatever has been put on the Internet is going to live on the Internet forever. [00:04:21] Christopher: And then I often ask parents to sort of take. their own personal experiences from when they were coming of age, right? You have to, as a parent, think back to that time when you were 12, 13, 14, and sort of the hormones and the changes that your body was going through and remember what that was like and now apply sort of the pressure that comes with that, with that in and of itself to it being 24 seven through constant communication, right? [00:04:50] Christopher: And so from that, If you download the apps themselves, like, I, I haven’t mentioned yet, but I do have a daughter who’s, who’s, 13 years old, and before she gets any application or is allowed to learn anything, I’m going to download it myself. Unfortunately, I have way more social media accounts than I would have preferred to have. [00:05:06] Christopher: but I feel like that’s one of the most important things we can do is actually understand the world that they’re going to be communicating in. [00:05:13] Sandie: So let’s talk about what kind of, let’s say, what kind of protections can parents put in place. The some, here are some of the options that I’ve had conversations about. Uh, parent who does not allow any social media. on their iPhone or Android phone, the parent that says, I’m going to look at your phone every day and check all of your conversations. [00:05:47] Sandie: And the parent that says, I just trust you. And I know you’ll make a good decision. So that’s a really broad spectrum. What kind of guardrails do you recommend putting up? [00:06:02] Christopher: Yeah, Dr Morgan. That’s a that’s a really good point. Um, you know, look, it’s not going to be I completely and intrinsically trust you, to just make the right decisions. Um, I wouldn’t put that level of pressure on my Children, nor would I ask that parents in general do that. tech companies have put a tremendous amount of effort into putting parental controls in a lot of social media for a reason. [00:06:22] Christopher: I also think it’s a sliding scale on how you deal with that, right? It’s going to depend on your particular guidelines as a child. How old is that child? What is their mental maturity of that child? But I think we’re remiss if we completely block our kids out from this world, because what ends up happening is if they’re not learning to use, this social media and interact with people online under the guidance of a trusted adult or a guardian, At some point, they’re going to be released into the world, and they’re going to have no protections in any way, shape, or form, and they’re not going to have learned those hard lessons. [00:06:55] Christopher: So I personally fall into that middle ground of the three options you gave, which is to allow them to use it, allow them a little bit of freedom, allow them to understand what the benefits are, but then take the time to explain what the downsides are, right? I, as a parent, am constantly leveraging. wanting my kids to feel safe and secure and be happy against also warning them of the dangers that do exist in this world. [00:07:24] Christopher: Right. And having worked these investigations for 20 years, I can tell you those dangers are are horrible. and so I want them to see the problem coming and going back to the hard target analogy we referred to is if you can identify a problem. before it is a problem, that is the easiest way to avoid it. [00:07:43] Christopher: So the example I give a lot of parents is if, if I know somebody is going to pickpocket me, I can just cross the street and, and avoid the interaction altogether. So seeing the problem, understanding the behavior, of predators online and how they work is going to be the best way to avoid that and the best way to become a hard target. [00:08:02] Christopher: And I think that only happens with. limited or, supervised use of social media and these internet platforms and the parental controls that they build into them. [00:08:12] Sandie: So parental controls, I get that. And I’m often horrified when I’m talking to a group of parents who have never opened the parental controls. What do parental controls do for you as a parent? [00:08:30] Christopher: Sure. And now it, it, it varies greatly depending on the company or the type of social media. There are some that have leaned into children and children’s communication. They have built messaging apps that are specifically designed for kids, so that the kids can communicate with each other and all of the communications will be put into the parents, social media account as well for review at any given time. [00:08:53] Christopher: you can turn on or off. Explicit language or messaging and filters that are built into it. Others are less. cooperative, if you will, whereas they allow you to see who the child is communicating with, but not the content of the communication in any way, shape or form. So if you’ve got like sort of a group chat with a bunch of friends from school and inappropriate data was being, shared amongst these kids, or, or, or an adult pretending to be a kid was able to infiltrate that group, you know, the parent wouldn’t be able to see like signs of grooming or other, atypical or, or. Behavior that would be inappropriate for that. and so understanding those different social media apps and what the parental crawls are is probably one of the most important things. And in full disclosure, it’s not an easy task. It is difficult. Each one is different from the other. these apps are not making money off of parental controls. [00:09:47] Christopher: So it’s not parental controls aren’t necessarily like the first thing that they’re working on,to fix bugs. [00:09:54] Sandie: Wow, and that’s an economic. aspect of what we’re dealing with here. So as parents, I think we can drive more motivation for corporate America to put those in place. So our advocacy as parents is part of how we build those guardrails. So Then, in a conversation with a 13 year old who has supervised social media, what are some of the daily topics that come up in the conversation with a trusted adult, a parent, a caregiver, maybe even a grandparent? [00:10:37] Christopher: Sure. so I make it a, a point of, of chatting with my daughter regularly about who she’s speaking to and what she’s, talking about at any given time, you know, more often than not the, the conversation doesn’t start with. you know, there are people out there that are looking to exploit children and these adults, right? [00:10:56] Christopher: This conversation can happen just from poor decisions that maybe a teenage boy makes or says something in a group chat or, or one of the, you know, her many girlfriends that are on these group chats and having that open dialogue with her, leads to other conversations. So when For example, when we talk about something that maybe went awry or a kid said something about another child that was wrong, I then use that often to break into a conversation about how, that type of behavior, if normalized, can start to seem like it’s reasonable. [00:11:30] Christopher: And then I will talk about something as, as heavy as grooming, for example, and how adults might groom a child in, which is to normalize abnormal behavior to get that child to sort of feel comfortable with things that are, are not right. and I use those often as jumping off points. [00:11:47] Sandie: give me an example of how you have that conversation because for me it’s easy to understand, the difference between normal and abnormal, behavior. When I think about having a conversation with a 12 or 13 year old about what’s abnormal, how do I, actually communicate that. That’s a very esoteric concept. [00:12:10] Christopher: Sure is. I, I had an, an example. My daughter was in seventh grade and she, along with, maybe a half a dozen of her friends were walking to a local coffee shop for one of the friend’s birthdays. And after school, they were going to walk, it’s about a mile walk to this spot, and they walked down a pretty busy road in Northern Virginia. [00:12:31] Christopher: And during that walk. Now, mind you, these are 12 year old girls. Two cars beeped their horn and catcalled at these 12 year old girls.and my daughter didn’t quite understand it, so I took that at the time to describe what normal and abnormal behavior was. And I said, look, you have cars passing down, and we did the math, my daughter loves math, so she leans into it, and we talked about the average amount of cars that went down. [00:12:55] Christopher: In that one mile, you were probably passed by 100 cars, and in that 100 cars, two cars, you had abnormal behavior. behavior come from them? Actually, we said 200. I pointed out that it was probably 50 50 men, women. So let’s look at the 100 men that had passed you. and I, I use that as an example to highlight for her how, yes, not everybody is bad, but that, that the people who are abnormal in their behavior are hiding amongst all those other drivers. [00:13:23] Christopher: and the idea is how do you identify that? And when you see it, recognize that it’s abnormal behavior. and then Trust your instincts when it comes to that. That felt wrong. That’s mostly because it was wrong. not specific to my daughter, but I’ve had the same conversation with groups of Children where I’m doing,what we call, uh, I guardian outreaches to Children. [00:13:43] Christopher: It’s an H. S. I run program. just to make Children hard targets. and I point that out regularly. If you’re amongst a group of friends and you’re seeing that bullying, you generally know what is abnormal and what’s wrong. And I want you to trust your instincts because more often than I’d like to admit, I hear After somebody is arrested for abusing a child, the people around them say, ah, something seemed off. [00:14:08] Christopher: And I often say, yeah, there was, there was probably things that you would pick up on and that you just need to believe people when they tell you that their behavior is abnormal. [00:14:19] Sandie: Wow. That is such a good conversation because it’s more than just when you’re online. It’s an in life conversation that parents will routinely have with their kids. I’m also interested in how you took something that is a little abstract and made it concrete. You broke it down in numbers with real cars passing by. [00:14:48] Sandie: And what I hear an awful lot of is more along the lines of, I’m warning you and there are people, there are predators, they’re going to come after you. And I Would love to hear your opinion on that as a deterrent in Parental conversations. [00:15:11] Christopher: There is, and again, I, I’m far from an academic, like yourself, but I have spent a little bit of time sort of looking into items, that, pertain to children and to criminals and how to kind of deal with that. And specifically, what you’re referencing is not necessarily the scared straight program, if you’ll recall that, [00:15:30] Sandie: Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:31] Christopher: and, and I know that a lot of the studies that came from that scared straight program actually, showed that it didn’t work very well. [00:15:38] Christopher: and there was a bunch of reasons for that, probably not necessarily because,because a parent was, was telling them not to do something. And I don’t think it equates over, exactly, but I just think that any scare tactics need to be put into context because if we just constantly tell the children, Hey, this is bad. [00:15:56] Christopher: This is bad. This is bad. eventually they’re just. It’s we’re going to normalize that bad behavior. And so I always make it a point to point out that the vast majority of people are good. It’s just that the bad people are hiding amongst it. And this is the potential of what could happen and why you need to look for the behavior. [00:16:16] Christopher: I just. I, I grew up in the 80s with, with the, Just Say No campaign and that all drugs were bad. And I’m not necessarily sure we won that messaging campaign, for people. And I think that maybe over communicating has worked for me, and the kids that I’ve had the opportunity to interact with over the years. [00:16:36] Sandie: and and that really kind of leads into another conversation Because what you said you want your family your kids to be to have good technology skills. So let’s talk a little bit about the double edged sword of technology, where it can lead to expertise or it can lead to exploitation. [00:17:04] Christopher: Yeah, that’s a great point because, as you mentioned earlier, I used an example of cars passing in a real life situation to to highlight the scenario. 1 of the things I realized. Maybe my 1st, years into investigating child exploitation, crimes was that children’s brains are, are literally wired different than mine. [00:17:24] Christopher: they don’t see any difference between communicating with a person right in front of them or communicating via text message or online. And that was a lesson I think that, you know, was a real wake up call for me. And in, in the particular investigation where I identified that was I had a victim who was, I think she was about 13 years old at the time. [00:17:44] Christopher: And without giving any details of that particular investigation, it was time for me to talk to her friends as part of that investigation. And when she gave me the information for one friend, it had a phone number. It, the person lived two houses down. And then she gave me, the information for the second friend, which was, a phone number for a state on the other side of the country. [00:18:06] Christopher: and I asked her, I said, have, have you ever met this person? And she said, no. Now, I had been talking to this young woman for, two weeks, and in her mind, the friend that lived two houses down and the friend whom she’d never met in person occupied that same space in her mind. And that was a real wake up call for me, is that kids literally use technology or interpret the information they get from technology different than sort of my generation. [00:18:32] Christopher: Hopefully that will be fixed with this next generation, right, because they’re growing up with technology as well. But I think that double edged sword means making kids hard targets and applying all of those lessons that they learn in real life and making sure they’re applying those to an online life, right? [00:18:49] Christopher: Being good digital citizens, understanding, that, Their actions have consequences, maybe even more so. I can’t imagine what it must be like to have everything you do monitored all the time. Like, I just, I made so many mistakes as a kid that I feel like these kids are under a tremendous amount of pressure. [00:19:06] Christopher: and I try to be mindful of that when I’m having those conversations. [00:19:09] Sandie: So this risk for being groomed by somebody you’ve never met but feels like a Like a friend that you can walk over to their house. Wow, that just gives me Goosebumps. I’m like, what what can I do as a parent to intervene in that thought process? And when would I know to intervene? Are there behavioral red flags? [00:19:38] Sandie: That we can look for that might indicate grooming. [00:19:42] Christopher: So, for the children, one of the things I like to point out is the difference. Most people understand what virus software looks like on a computer. Um, there’s really two different types of virus software. There’s the type that looks for downloads your virus definitions, right? And it will tell you, Hey, We know these files are a virus, so we will quarantine them, delete them, not let you pull them down. [00:20:02] Christopher: And I’m sure you’ve seen this on your computers. And there’s another type of virus software called heuristic virus software, which actually doesn’t look for the particular files, but instead it looks for the behavior of the software. So, I have adopted this and, and the I Guardian Project has adopted this, and I highly suggest that parents do this, which is understanding how people groom and how it works. [00:20:23] Christopher: A couple of examples would be something we refer to as white knighting. So you will have somebody who is online, and they will befriend a, a potential victim online. They will also create a second online persona where they will, will attack that victim. And so. They’ll start making that victim feel bad. [00:20:43] Christopher: They will start attacking them. They will start cyber bullying them. And with the white knight account, the one that’s a friend, that white knight account will then defend the victim from there. And all of this is just a show to build trust into the victim that I am looking out for you and I am not the predator. [00:21:00] Christopher: But really both accounts were run by the predators. It’s also like understanding For example, the Nigerian Prince, scheme where people won money, we saw that a lot in the early 2000s, late 90s. And looking back on it, it’s almost laughable that somebody would lose their entire life savings. But when it was novel and you didn’t understand it was a fraud or scam, you can get caught by it. [00:21:24] Christopher: So again, Understanding or being that heuristic software or explaining with your kids how the predators work, what they do, what is their behavior will give the kids the ability to see that behavior. Hey, it is abnormal for something like this to happen or this is the type of scam somebody might have or somebody might pretend, to be doing in order to gain your trust. [00:21:45] Christopher: And in reality, that’s grooming and it makes it a lot easier to see it. Um, truthfully, if I had my way, I would never work another one of these investigations because it. We would put him out, but unfortunately, I don’t think we’re there. [00:21:57] Sandie: Wow. Really insightful. Thank you. another question I have for you. I don’t get dads on this show very often from a father’s perspective. Is there a unique aspect of male role models? [00:22:14] Christopher: So personally I think that my relationship with my daughter is very important. I know it’s important for me and I think it’s probably pretty important for her as well. And I think that male role models play an important role really in in. And both boys and girls and raising them. I often say the best thing that I can do for my daughter is treat her mother well, right? [00:22:37] Christopher: Because I am setting that standard by which all males will be judged going forward, at least at a younger age. And I want to be that role model. I want her to see that. typical behavior, how I interact with her, how I interact with her mother on a regular basis is going to level her expectations going forward. [00:22:56] Christopher: And if I hold a high standard, when she moves out into the world, she’s going to expect that same standard, from the other males in her life. And I think just by being that person or being that father, I am, I am continually giving her the tools necessary to decipher, What’s good, what’s bad, what’s normal, what’s abnormal, and, and in effect, making her a harder target. [00:23:19] Sandie: I love that. And the other thought that has been running through my mind since our first conversation is if I’m in a community environment and I’m part of PTA, I’m at a church, maybe I’m a group of teachers, educators. Are there some tips for how I relate to law enforcement? [00:23:47] Christopher: Yeah, so I think that law enforcement, especially those who work in, in, in sort of the, what we refer to CSAM, the child sexual abuse material, the child exploitation world, realize that this is,this is a ubiquitous problem that knows no boundaries, right? There’s there’s no socioeconomic issues. [00:24:06] Christopher: There’s no race issues. There’s no gender issues in the end. It’s about adults protecting Children, and working together to do that. at least in the United States of America, we have these things called the ICACs, which is the Internet Crime Against Children, task force that operate in every community across the entire country. [00:24:25] Christopher: HSI has an iGuardian program that’s built specifically to do these types of outreaches. and I think that leveraging those or using your school resource officers to sort of talk about or engage with the children, is really important. And I think that, parents to understand that. the police want nothing more than for this crime to just go away for the rest of their lives. [00:24:46] Christopher: And, and, and that we are happy to help in any way, shape or form whenever we can. And if that means helping in a way that isn’t reactionary, but instead is proactive, like this podcast today, that we’re, we’re all in. [00:25:00] Sandie: Oh, that’s so good. Honestly, when I talk to parents, sometimes exactly what you said about the police comes up. They just want this to go away. And parents feel like this is so overwhelming. And there are a lot of media misrepresents the hard facts. And I think one of the things I’ve heard you talk about is the dark web, which is like this monster boogeyman in my mind, and makes me really concerned that somehow this is going to be something I can’t manage. [00:25:40] Sandie: Can you demystify that just a bit? [00:25:44] Christopher: Yes, doctor. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. I think that, Not being intimidated by the technology, is, is step one for parents when we talk about keeping kids safe online and, and making them hard targets. the dark web is this thing you hear about online. It’s the seedy underbelly. they’ve made children’s movies that involve like, you know, the dark web and, and I find them pretty hilarious and, and, and accurate at the same time. [00:26:09] Christopher: But what we shouldn’t think is that the dark web is some. Some spot that’s hard to get to. Ultimately, the Dark Web, really, when most people refer to that, they’re talking about Tor, which is the Onion Router, was an actual US government project that was developed and released out into the world as an open source way of communicating. [00:26:29] Christopher: The Dark Web, or Tor, in and of itself, is not evil, it’s not good, and it’s not bad. As a matter of fact, All it does is it makes you anonymous online, and you can imagine that if you lived in a country where because of your gender, you were not allowed to learn how to read or to go to school, being able to get online and be anonymous and get access to resources or even just read the news like the BBC or the Wall Street Journal might be really beneficial because otherwise that would be blocked by your country. [00:26:59] Christopher: You could really put the dark web through the lens of something that is beneficial for society. The problem is that anonymity that is intrinsic into, the onion router, more commonly known as the dark web, is, or a dark net, is leveraged by bad actors, right? And bad actors use it. They commit heinous crimes with it. [00:27:21] Christopher: and that sort of, gives it that ominous feel to it. And truthfully, there are some terrible things happen in it on a regular basis. The technology is really just encryption, not unlike end to end encrypted messaging you would have with, your, your Apple phone or your Android phone or, or a messaging app. [00:27:39] Christopher: The difference is the encryption is deployed not to keep the data safe, but the encryption is deployed to keep the users of it anonymous. And it’s very good at what it does. I mean, this isn’t, these wasn’t created by some hackers wearing hoods, like you see on television. This was created by some of the smartest cryptologists and computer programs, software engineers, in the world, really at the behest of the U. [00:28:03] Christopher: S. government and under contract for them. Which is why the technology is so good, and there is an argument for privacy. So from a parent’s point of view, going to torproject. org, going to HSI’s iGuardian resources, Leaning on DHS is no to protect, campaign will help them understand sort of how this technology works. [00:28:24] Christopher: So they’re not intimidated by it. Ultimately, my goal is sort of to pull the veil away from, the technology itself and empower people. It is not. Intrinsically evil, and it’s not illegal, by the way. That’s the other piece. You can go to tour project dot org and download a tour browser. I would be very careful about where you visit with it, but, you could go and you can read about it and understand it. [00:28:48] Christopher: But most importantly, what you need to know is that your kids can also do that. It’s very easy to download the browser and just get online. [00:28:55] Sandie: Wow. Okay. So. It’s demystified, but I’m still pretty intimidated by it. So I’m going to be going to iGuardian first to get more information. And there are so many great apps out there in our community trying to keep our kids safe. We’ve interviewed people like Rachel Thomas with the Cool Ants series. [00:29:18] Sandie: We’ve interviewed pe Folks from Thorne, from NCMEC, um, last year at our Insure Justice Conference, by the end of the second day, we had a tagline, Talk Tech Every Day. And I think we can equate this conversation with how we reduced dental caries, cavities, decades ago, because we made brushing your teeth a daily expectation that Every parent taught every year in school, you got to chew that little tablet to see with the black light, if you had any gaps in how you were brushing your teeth. [00:30:01] Sandie: And so as we continue to dialogue on this and develop better online safety, I’m, Would like to know how you have changed. You’ve been doing this for a couple of decades and as you have become a recognized, a recognized active, no, that’s not what I, a recognized advocate for proactive parenting. I think that’s why I’m so excited you’re coming to Ensure Justice because you’re an example of what we can do, not What, how we can run, hide, protect, be on our guard all the time. [00:30:46] Sandie: And so I would like to know how you would advise parents to join you in that movement away from a fear based approach to proactive parenting. [00:30:59] Christopher: Yes, and I certainly would, would. encourage parents to lean into communications and lean into talking about tech. I, I refer to it as raising the cyber IQ of parents, but I very much like your tagline more. talk tech every day, gets to that point where we’re, we’re demystifying it, we’re pulling it back. [00:31:19] Christopher: We’re having a conversation. And truthfully, I learned more from my child about how these apps work than, then I could figure out on my own because it’s just all very intuitive to her. And so opening that line of communication up, opening it up with the other parents, every Christmas party we have, sometimes I’m not the funnest person just for the, the nature of the work I do. [00:31:39] Christopher: It’s kind of a downer, but if we, if we gear it to sort of their kids and their presentations, then what we ended up finding out is that, They have the skills necessary to lean into it, but they were just a little bit intimidated to your point. And, and once they have somebody sort of empower them or tell them, Hey, look, you can do this, download it, let’s do it. [00:31:57] Christopher: As friends, we all have social media communication apps that we wouldn’t use ourselves, but for our kids being on it. So now we all sort of get in and now we communicate on it, not because we really want to, but because it’s the right thing to do. So we understand the platform that our kids are using daily. [00:32:14] Sandie: And I do think it’s important that parents. partner in their communities. A few years back, my daughter’s friends, when my granddaughter was a teenager, had all started becoming friends with a guy at school, that it turns out when my daughter asked, who is he? Where does he live? Nobody actually had ever met him. [00:32:42] Sandie: And so she reported it to the school, they found out he was, some, a guy in his 20s targeting high school girls. And so parents can be part of, of a community that is alert to what other kids in their kid’s friend circles can do as well. And I’m more and more convinced that proactive parenting is going to be the next big thing in combating human trafficking when it comes to online recruitment. [00:33:18] Sandie: and predatory behavior. Last remark, what do you want people to be thinking about? [00:33:26] Christopher: Well, as it relates to being a hard target, being online and keeping our Children safe, I just want people to remember that, the vast majority of the people are in fact good people in the world, right? And being able to identify that and trust your gut and trust your communication levels with your children so that you can continue to have those conversations is something we need to strive for. [00:33:49] Christopher: Look, talking to a teenager isn’t always the easiest thing. I think we all know that. but you know, as parents,we should, we should embrace that and we should continue to talk tech every day. And I fully endorse that. [00:34:00] Sandie: Thank you so much, Chris. it’s been a pleasure to have you with us today. I have learned so much. I’ve got more questions, but I’m going to have to have you come back. No, wait, I’m going to have you come to Vanguard. you In March, 7th and 8th, Ensure Justice, sign up so you can have a personal conversation with our team here. [00:34:23] Sandie: And everybody, if this is your first time to listen to the podcast, go over to the EndingHumanTrafficking. org website. Subscribe, and you’ll get an email when a new episode drops every two weeks. Give us some feedback. Are there topics you’d like us to explore? And join us. [00:34:47] Sandie: Again in two weeks…
 
Brian Joseph joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they discuss how investigative journalism can reveal the hidden realities of sex trafficking in the United States. Brian Joseph Brian Joseph is an investigative journalist with more than 20 years of experience uncovering stories of systemic corruption, criminal enterprises, and human exploitation. His latest book, Vegas Concierge , is a riveting expose that shines a light on the darker realities of the entertainment capital of the world. Key Points Investigative journalism plays a crucial role in exposing human trafficking networks and systemic corruption. Vegas Concierge tells the story of Angela, a survivor of sex trafficking, providing insight into the lived experiences of victims. Las Vegas is considered a hub for trafficking activities, often referred to as a “Mecca” within the pimp subculture. The tipping culture in Las Vegas casinos facilitates trafficking by allowing trafficked women to navigate and avoid detection. Many traffickers coerce women into the sex trade by exploiting past trauma and manipulating their self-worth. Women often cycle through multiple traffickers, unable to break free from the system due to a lack of alternatives. Female traffickers are common, yet often overlooked in discussions around human trafficking. Institutional complicity and economic incentives within the casino and entertainment industries perpetuate trafficking. Grooming, though not explicitly illegal, is a critical step in the coercion and exploitation process. The book emphasizes the importance of understanding the specific details of trafficking cases, rather than generalizing experiences. Joseph highlights the nonpartisan nature of human trafficking as a human rights issue that should be prioritized politically. A call to action for readers is to engage deeply with the issue, educate themselves, and push for systemic change. Resources Buy Book VegasConciergeBook.com Transcript [00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 335, Investigative Journalism, a Pathway to Understanding Sex Trafficking. We’re here with. Brian Joseph. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. [00:00:51] Sandie: Brian Joseph is an investigative journalist with more than 20 years of experience uncovering stories of systemic corruption, criminal enterprises, and human exploitation. His latest book, Vegas Concierge, is a riveting expose that shines a light on the darker realities of the entertainment capital of the world. [00:01:20] Sandie: Brian, welcome to our podcast. [00:01:23] Brian: I’m glad to be here. Thanks for having me. [00:01:25] Sandie: So you’re used to putting all of your energy into written expression. How are you enjoying being on the speaking circuit. I saw you last night at a book signing and last month at another one. [00:01:43] Brian: It’s, it’s been a change. Obviously I’m feel more comfortable behind a keyboard than anywhere else, but this has been a lot of fun. [00:01:49] Brian: It’s, it’s great to, you know, interact with folks that have read the book and, and it’s always a, you know, I enjoy talking with people. [00:01:55] Sandie: All right. Well, we’re going to have a great conversation. I do have a keyboard here. I could let you hold. So, okay. So tell us what. What drove you to actually do more than just an investigative article, but an entire book? [00:02:13] Brian: Well, I think, you know, by the time that, uh, uh, I started working specifically on, on the case that became the centerpiece of Vegas Concierge, I had already, you know, gathered quite a lot of information about domestic sex trafficking in the United States. And so, and then the, the story itself that does serve as a centerpiece of the book is such a winding tale that it, it just seemed quite, quite obvious that it would, it would most fit as a book rather than anything else. [00:02:38] Brian: There was just so much material, so much of a plot that it, it would, I couldn’t imagine telling that story in any other way. [00:02:45] Sandie: So let’s do, it’s really hard because this, I don’t remember how many pages it is, but can you give us, in a nutshell, the theme and your agenda as you processed how to put this story together? [00:03:03] Brian: Well, uh, Vegas concierge uses a, uh, The tale of a years long investigation into sex trafficking in Las Vegas is a narrative vehicle to explore how American society fails victims and survivors of sex trafficking. It was a project that required a lot of sensitivity and required a lot of work to get it put together in such a way that it was, I felt that it could be beneficial and impactful to the larger society. [00:03:30] Brian: And, uh, it was something that required a lot of, uh, [00:03:40] Sandie: So one of the things, and it’s not a spoiler alert for our listeners, but one of the conclusions towards the end of Brian’s book is a great place to start as we explore more. In this story, he says, this is modern day slavery, a nonpartisan human rights issue. If there ever was one and it’s time it’s eradication becomes a part of the American political agenda. [00:04:15] Sandie: And Brian. I am totally in sync with that. I have served in so many capacities and I am constantly bringing back to the table that this is nonpartisan. So as a disclaimer, before we start our conversation, cause we may not always agree, we are both committed. to the human dignity of our survivors and victims that are out there that we have not recovered. [00:04:44] Sandie: Absolutely. So, okay. So, we’ll dive in. My first big question now is in your very unsettling story, what Initially inspired you to make Las Vegas the focal point. [00:05:04] Brian: Well, that’s, that happened to be where I was, where I was based and where I began my investigation of domestic sex trafficking. So, to some degree, it was just, you know, where I happened to be. [00:05:16] Brian: Now, on a more, on a grander scale, Vegas, as I understand it, is considered by, by many people in the, uh, the pimp prostitution subculture to be sort of the, the Mecca of, of that, of that community. And so it made sense to me to center the book on, in Vegas because it is such a, a nexus for this sort of activity. [00:05:35] Sandie: I have to agree totally with that. I was shocked when I first came back from living overseas and got involved in understanding what sex trafficking looks like here in America, and discovered a pimp conference. In Las Vegas, they get together and they study and share notes and say, Oh, this works, but this doesn’t. [00:06:00] Sandie: They collaborate in sharing knowledge, which honestly, one of the reasons I love doing this podcast is it’s an easy way to share what we’ve learned with others and connect it. our knowledge and insight. So give us a rundown on your top characters in this narrative. [00:06:24] Brian: Well, I would use the word subjects because they are, they are, they are real people. [00:06:27] Brian: Obviously, the, the primary subject of the book is Angela. She’s a survivor and we, we follow her through the course of her life and her experiences in the pimp prostitute subculture and as, as being trafficked. Another main subject is Don. He is a retired vice sergeant from Las Vegas who has a. Deep heart for these victims and survivors and was very disturbed to see how certain issues played out in the community. [00:06:50] Brian: The primary trafficker in the book is a, uh, a hip hop music producer by the name of Molly mall. Uh, and then there’s a number of, of other people, other traffickers, other smaller characters that are, are subjects I should say that are, that are, that were victimized. And then there are just another collection of, of, of police and judicial figures in the book as well. [00:07:10] Sandie: So one of the themes that was kind of new knowledge for me, I mean I supposed that there was a lot of connection with the hospitality industry in Vegas, but that’s an area that you established direct to. connections. Can you expand on how that helps us understand ways to intervene with victims, male and female, ways to begin to establish effective interventions to help them leave their victimization? [00:07:56] Brian: Well, sure. So the book, uh, talks a lot about the interplay between victims and survivors of sex trafficking and sort of the larger casino industrial complex of Las Vegas. Uh, you see in the book, women who are being trafficked, who have to interact with people like taxi cab drivers or valets or security guards. [00:08:16] Brian: And you see how, uh, The tipping culture of Vegas allows them to essentially work their way through the massive facilities that are casinos in Las Vegas. [00:08:28] Sandie: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This, this is a new New way of thinking the tipping culture is involved in human trafficking. [00:08:37] Brian: Absolutely. So as you may may be aware Las Vegas Runs not [00:08:42] Sandie: a regular visitor to Las Vegas. [00:08:45] Sandie: So yeah, you have to educate me [00:08:47] Brian: Sure, so a huge a huge way that business is done in Las Vegas involves involves tipping So if you you know, you want to you know You know, maybe, uh, get into a certain part of the casino that, uh, you might not otherwise have access to, or you want to, you know, find out, uh, you want to get a, a referral to, uh, you know, a cool club or whatever you might, uh, you might ask a, a taxi cab driver for, for referral and, and either you might tip them for that, or, or maybe, uh, the person that you refer them to the taxi cab driver refers you to might get a tip for, for, for that referral. [00:09:21] Brian: And so that what happens with, uh, with. Victims and survivors of sex trafficking is they will, uh, they will often tip security guards to, to in a casino so that the security guards might let them know if police are in the area so they can watch their back or the security, they might tip the security guard so they can be allowed to, to loiter in an area where they otherwise might be not allowed to loiter. [00:09:43] Brian: And so that sort of tipping culture is a, is a. Is a tool that women who are being trafficked used to to then work their ways through casinos in Las Vegas, and it’s a way for them to sort of operate without being detected. Now, it does speak to the sort of interplay between that that subculture and and the above board casinos that operate in Las Vegas. [00:10:07] Brian: It does. I should point out that it’s unclear at the highest levels of casinos, whether they’re there. intimately aware of what’s going on or if they’re just sort of vaguely aware of what’s going on. I think, I don’t know that there’s any, there’s any doubt that the people at the highest levels know that this happens to some degree. [00:10:22] Brian: I don’t know the extent to which they, they understand that this is happening. [00:10:26] Sandie: Okay. So when we’re talking about these direct connections, then what other levels are there? You, you talk about entertainment, And, and sometimes it feels like even when you’re talking, talking up in a, in the story of tipping that this is something that the women are doing. [00:10:52] Sandie: So it seems to take the trafficker, the pimp out of the story and she appears to have agency. Can you comment on that? On how that comes across. [00:11:04] Brian: I want to make very clear that I don’t believe. Well, I don’t want to take agency away from anybody, but I want to make very clear that that when I’m talking about traffickers, I’m sorry, trafficked women engaging in perhaps tipping. [00:11:17] Brian: This is not something that That they came up with on their own and that they decided they want to do. This is an expectation of them that’s placed on them by their trafficker. They need to do whatever is necessary to execute their goal of selling sex for the trafficker. And so these victims and survivors, these women have to learn sort of essentially the ropes of surviving in Vegas. [00:11:36] Brian: And often they have, of course, most of the time they’ve been manipulated into into this lifestyle in the first place. So. On one hand, yes, they, I guess you could say that they consciously, you know, learn these skills in order to, to operate in Las Vegas, but on a much larger level, they have been coerced into this lifestyle and been convinced that they, they want to and desire to engage in this sort of behavior and that they are indeed being pressured to do whatever, whatever is necessary to, to make a buck in the sex industry. [00:12:07] Sandie: And that really speaks to the blurred lines around the sense that we can call someone a seller and arrest them for selling illicit sex, but not the person. actually see them as a victim. So they look like they have agency. Can you speak to what you learned about grooming that results in this coercive manipulation? [00:12:38] Brian: Well, absolutely. So, so grooming plays a central part of, of the victimization of, of women who are trafficked. Grooming in and of itself, as I think we discussed the other day, at least on its face, as I understand it, doesn’t doesn’t qualify as a crime. I mean, that’s just somebody cozying up to you, but it’s a very coercive behavior that then allows traffickers to become very close to their victims and essentially convince the victims that it’s their own initiative. [00:13:08] Brian: And their own desire to engage in this behavior when in fact, I think the the record will show that these women have truly been been brainwashed and been manipulated into this lifestyle. But it is a very difficult and very subtle interaction that we’re talking about. And it’s something that most people have a difficulty wrapping their mind around. [00:13:27] Brian: And it, and it, it. It’s different for for every trafficker and every victim. It’s, it’s very hard to talk about these things in in vague generalities or sort of in theory. You really, it’s, it’s really important to talk about them with, you know, in this specific case at hand, because Again, the, these things are so, are so nuanced. [00:13:48] Brian: It’s just, it’s just very difficult to say in, in sort of broad strokes, you know, this is the way it is or that is the way it is. It, it, it’s, you really need to look at, I, I believe you really need to look very closely at the, uh, the facts of an individual case to be, to begin to understand, uh, what may be driving, uh, the behavior of a, uh, a woman who is being trafficked. [00:14:07] Sandie: So what. Would you point out specifically about Angela that you used her story with her permission and collaboration to teach us about that? What are some key signs? [00:14:22] Brian: Well, in Angela’s case, I mean, there’s a, there’s a number of, of potential signs you could point to. I mean, I think one of the largest one is, is the number of promises that were made to her by, by, by various, various traffickers that she engaged with. [00:14:33] Brian: And there was always these promises of, you know, a dream team of lawyers of. You know, ascending to, you know, higher ranks of the, of the industry of, of, of, I guess you could even say protection or, um, satisfaction, you know, those were empty promises that she was given. [00:14:51] Sandie: And you use the plural for traffickers. [00:14:55] Sandie: And so give us kind of a timeline or, or a way to conceptualize the idea that this, this Crime is something that can often become a pattern in a victim’s life. They may get away from one trafficker to be controlled by another. [00:15:18] Brian: Well, it’s important to understand that survivors and victims of sex trafficking often don’t Don’t have a clear view of their own of what’s going on with themselves. [00:15:28] Brian: They don’t necessarily see themselves as victims they don’t necessarily really even see the At least initially the the coercion that’s been it’s been affecting them Oftentimes women who are are trafficked have suffered tremendous traumas earlier in their lives long before they ever thought about engaging in in sex work and and and What happens is, is these, these traffickers step in and exploit those traumas, exploit the, the, uh, the harm of those traumas caused, you know, perhaps they, they, uh, these women have low self esteem and a trafficker may step in and say, you know, you know, may, may, may pump her up, may, may make her feel good about herself and use that sort of connection to then push her into, into the work and into sex work. [00:16:14] Brian: And so, So these women, this becomes all that they really know the, the, the only sort of relationships that they, they, they become familiar with are these sort of exploitative, coercive relationships. And so, yes, they may get tired with, with one trafficker. They may, they may get very upset with being beaten or being lied to and eventually leave. [00:16:36] Brian: But once, once that happens, uh, they, they really don’t have a, uh, A picture in their brain of any other sort of relationship, and so then they become, you become victim to the, the coercion and exploitation of another trafficker and then another trafficker. And it’s very similar and akin to, uh, someone who engages in a serial, a series of, uh, of dysfunctional relationships. [00:16:59] Brian: It’s very much in that same vein. [00:17:02] Sandie: And. The, the lineup of people that trafficked Angela is horrendous and, but it really points to something people often overlook. Traffickers are not all like Hollywood images, and it’s, It’s wonderful that you point out that one of her traffickers was female, because we overlook that. [00:17:29] Sandie: We look, uh, and in the early days of doing raids and busts to recover even quote unquote rescue victims, all of the women would be in the same room. And then we’d find out later, Oh my gosh. One of them was going around telling. them, what would happen to them if they. said anything. And so I eventually did some research that showed about 40 percent of sex trafficking traffickers are female. [00:18:05] Sandie: And you did such a great job. And this isn’t supposed to be Great job, Brian. Podcast. But that was one of the highlights of the book for me is you told that story. Do you want to comment on how you saw that? Were you expecting that? [00:18:22] Brian: I, uh, by the time I, uh, began working with Angela, I was familiar with the fact that there are at least some women who, who are traffickers. [00:18:29] Brian: So that, that didn’t necessarily come as a surprise. I, of course, hearing. You know, the details of Angela’s story was, was very traumatic and very upsetting. And I, I would hope that anyone who reads the book would, would come to the same conclusion. [00:18:44] Sandie: So good. So the institutional complicity that was, That was something that was a thread through the entire book and it actually Seemed to contribute to the the word that came to mind is a thriving money making industry. [00:19:10] Sandie: And I, and I want to point out to folks listening that exploitation is the bottom line for sex trafficking. Someone else is profiting by commercially selling another person. So can you speak to how you told the story of that complicity? [00:19:34] Brian: I told that story very carefully. I mean, the difficulty in in in reporting on something like that is it’s not necessarily something that people are going to want to talk about directly, and it’s not something that you’re going to find a lot of direct clear examples of. [00:19:49] Brian: It’s something that you’re going to have to come to by by talking to someone here, looking at a document there and sort of beginning to put the pieces together yourself. There’s not one single. individual that’s going to be able to say, this is what’s going on in this situation. I mean, it’s something that you really need to, to piece together bit by bit. [00:20:06] Brian: And that’s what I, I, I’d like to think we did in the book. [00:20:09] Sandie: So what were some of your methods? You, what are you piecing together? [00:20:14] Brian: Well, you know, my, my method as a, as a journalist is, is to be, is to be very thorough and be very careful and to, You know, to essentially, you know, talk to everyone that I possibly can and to review every, uh, piece and piece of written material that I can and, and to begin to see connections and draw connections and then, and then to return to my sources and ask him, am I making the right connections? [00:20:34] Brian: Am I, am I seeing the right things? And uh, uh, did that numerous times over the course of this book and, and, uh, you know, repeatedly was told, yes, you’re on the right track. This is exactly what the picture truly is. [00:20:48] Sandie: One of the things that I loved about how you told the story is you were totally committed and commented in the narrative in the chapters telling stories about the personal agency, the respect, and checking back to make sure you got it. [00:21:11] Sandie: Right. From their perspective. What made that your like your plumb line for this? Because honestly, sometimes journalists are just looking to see how many people are going to read this. And I don’t always see a lot of it. Respect for the actual person behind the story. [00:21:36] Brian: That’s just who I am as a person. I mean, that’s what matters to me and what’s important to me. [00:21:40] Brian: I mean, the beauty of writing a book is that, you know, I got to call the shots about what the standards would be in terms of how we handled the approach, in terms of we handled the reporting and handled, you know, various disclosures. And the book just reflects what I believe is important. [00:21:53] Sandie: So then if you’re speaking, I’m at a university, I have journalism students that I work with. [00:22:01] Sandie: I was in a conversation yesterday with one of them. Success now looks like a model of social media getting likes and the clear. understanding is that if you want to get those, you have to do the sensational stuff. What was the personal price you paid because you didn’t go down that road? [00:22:33] Brian: Well, I, I guess we’ll still see. [00:22:34] Brian: I don’t, uh, you know, we’re only at the publication of the book. I don’t know at this point what sort of personal price I’ll pay for the approach that I’ve taken to this book. What I, what I will say is that my overriding concern the entire time, even to this day, is, is accuracy. I still find myself going, gosh, did I get that sentence right? [00:22:51] Brian: Did I do that correctly? I mean, I just care very much about that. I mean, the notion of having, Popularity be a priority for me, which just, which just wasn’t there. My, my, my focus was on telling the best, most empathetic and truthful story that I could. [00:23:08] Sandie: I, I just love how you treated the victims who were being exploited. [00:23:14] Sandie: So sometimes we can clearly identify that someone is by law, by the elements of force, fraud and coercion, a victim. of sex trafficking, of human trafficking. But sometimes it’s not as clear, and I’ve heard you use, and I read, the word exploitation. So how are you using that language? Because language matters. [00:23:44] Sandie: Absolutely. And it contributes to an understanding of that pathway. So talk to me about that. [00:23:54] Brian: I mean, this may, this may be a simplistic way of putting it, but for purposes of our conversation, you know, I tend to very generally think of exploitation as, as simply, uh, another person laboring, uh, for the benefit of another. [00:24:09] Brian: And that’s certainly what, uh, what is going on. As it relates to victims and survivors of sex trafficking, there is a pimp, uh, above them who, uh, through manipulation or through force, uh, makes them engage in activities and then the reaps almost, almost or entirely the benefits of those activities that to me is exploitation and should bother anyone with a pulse. [00:24:35] Sandie: That shows the humanity side of you, Brian. I, I, when I think about exploitation, I actually have begun to look at it in my own world because it’s an economic term, which this human trafficking is an economically based crime. [00:24:58] Brian: Absolutely. [00:24:59] Sandie: And so we will be sitting around the table making a strategic plan for our company, our business, our, our newest program. [00:25:11] Sandie: And someone will say, well, how can we exploit these resources? It’s a business term. And we’re very comfortable leveraging because leveraging is one of the elements of exploitation. Do you think culturally that kind of profit agenda is something we have ignored in our prevention and intervention? That’s [00:25:40] Brian: a good question. [00:25:40] Brian: I don’t, I don’t know. Um, I mean, if you, if you’re talking about using the term exploit as in the business terms of say, you know, you’re, you’re an automotive manufacturer and, uh, you’re in a meeting and you say, you know, we have a good relationship with this provider of tires and they can make a lot of tires quickly. [00:26:00] Brian: We should exploit that by, you know, doing whatever. I don’t, I don’t find that upsetting. I find, I find using terms like exploitation or exploit in reference to people upsetting. So I guess my, my response to that would be context matters as well as, as language. And when you’re talking about people, I think we should, we should think more carefully and, and more thoroughly about the language we use. [00:26:26] Sandie: I agree. One of the most interesting chapters is when you start talking about policy agendas. So talk to us about your understanding of decrim, legalization. What do you think is the most important thing for people to pay attention to? [00:26:48] Brian: Well, I think, you know, there’s a number of different ideas on the table for addressing sex trafficking, both in the United States and elsewhere. [00:26:56] Brian: There are a number of people in the anti trafficking movement here and across the globe who, who believe different things. You know, some believe legalization, some believe decrim, some believe the Nordic model, some believe, you know, the status quo is the, is the best way to go. Uh, Me speaking for myself only. [00:27:13] Brian: I appreciate those, those debates, but I don’t know that the time is now to have those debates because from my perspective, it certainly seems that not enough people, at least in the United States, take this issue seriously. And so my belief is that instead of having these squabbles within the anti trafficking community over what, what’s the best way to move forward, there should be a focus on just. [00:27:39] Brian: Getting the general public, the larger public to take this issue seriously. So that’s the, uh, The only, uh, message I guess that I would advocate for is just simply that my sense is that the general public doesn’t take this seriously enough and that that that really needs to be addressed before we begin talking about specific policy options. [00:28:00] Sandie: And for our listeners, we’ve done a few interviews on this issue. Dr. Donna Hughes, Brad Miles, uh, Lisa Thompson talked to us about the kind of vocabulary we use. Um, her big concern has always been, Stayed in my head all the time, because when we start using language like sex worker, it legitimizes this as a job that your kid can grow up and aspire to, and that concerns me, which is why I prefer to look at this from the lens of exploitation, and I don’t have it. [00:28:42] Sandie: An answer to where we need to go. I do believe that our law enforcement teams are beginning to recognize the victimization on a more general across the board, proactive policing agenda, like we talked about in the last episode. So I encourage you as a listener to make this a point to get more knowledge and insight, seek some education, because this is an area where intervention can begin to develop real concrete steps to help women and men leave that kind of exploitation. [00:29:30] Sandie: Brian, I have two more questions for you. The first one is How long did it take you to write this book? [00:29:38] Brian: That’s a good question. I mean, it depends on what you mean by, by write this. I, I, um, I spent a couple of years researching domestic sex trafficking when I was working for the paper in Las Vegas. When I then was on my own, I spent roughly four years working on the book involving both research and writing. [00:29:56] Sandie: And have you changed your mind about anything? Have I changed my [00:30:01] Brian: mind about anything? Yes, I guess, I guess if I had to point to one particular thing that has changed for me, it’s, it’s simply that this understanding that it’s very difficult to, to talk about relationships, to talk about individuals cases without looking at the specifics of those cases. [00:30:19] Brian: As I mentioned before, it’s very, it’s very tempting to sort of talk about. Issues of sex and issues of exploitation and sort of a vague sort of way, but it’s really not helpful. We, we, we need to, to really, if we’re going to talk about, you know, A case, we need to talk about the case in its entirety in the details of the case, you can’t just sort of talk vaguely about, well, you know, my perception is that if I was in that situation, I would handle it this way. [00:30:45] Brian: Well, you don’t really know because you don’t know all of the specifics of that case. So I guess for me, what’s changed is, is, is a, uh, I’m much less I’m less likely to, to think in sort of broad strokes and to think more specifically about each individual and each individual case that I come across. [00:31:03] Sandie: Thank you for that. What is your call to action [00:31:07] Brian: to your readers? Well, I don’t know that I have a call to action. I, you know, I, I, as a journalist, I, I work very hard to, to focus on, on telling the story. And to getting at the truth and letting other people decide what the, what the call to action is. I guess if I did have a call to action, it would be simply to, uh, uh, to engage with this issue in a, in a real and substantive way and to, uh, to not rely on what you’re seeing in, in pop culture and what’s being discussed vaguely in, in, in conversation, but to really understand it yourself and to educate yourself on this issue. [00:31:40] Sandie: That’s great. And how can they get your book? [00:31:42] Brian: So the, uh, um, the old catchphrase, you can get this book wherever books are sold actually does apply to Vegas concierge. Our publisher, Roman and Littlefield has an excellent distribution network. And my understanding is that you can get it, you know, just about any, any bookseller. [00:31:57] Brian: So of course available online through Amazon and Barnes and Noble and other places like that. That’s wonderful. And do you have a website? We do. Our website is VegasConciergeBook. com. You can find some summary materials as well as some documents that we used to flesh out the research of the book. [00:32:14] Sandie: All right. [00:32:14] Sandie: And I did really appreciate the heavy annotations. You’ve been wonderful. Did a great job from a professor’s perspective of making sure people’s voices were documented, and that’s really commendable. I appreciate that. I look forward to your next book, and I have questions. That I’d like you to investigate. [00:32:42] Sandie: Yeah, I’m all, I’m all ears. Thank you. Okay. All right. Well, thank you, Brian, for joining us today and for your dedication to exposing injustice. And for my listeners, I encourage you to follow up. It’s pretty heavy reading, but you will gain a deeper understanding of systems that are behind the scenes. That are not as easy to just say, well, we’ll fix this. [00:33:12] Sandie: And it’s very nuanced and that comes across. Thank you for listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. Go online if this is your first time and become a subscriber and you will receive the show notes every time an episode drops every two weeks. See you again soon. Bye.…
 
Derek Marsh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss the role of law enforcement in preventing human trafficking. Derek Marsh Derek Marsh is the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. He is a retired Deputy Chief of the Westminster Police Department, CA, with over 26 years of service. He co-founded the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force and has been a national and international leader in anti-human trafficking training, investigations, and advocacy. A former Bureau of Justice Assistance Visiting Fellow, Derek has worked extensively to improve labor trafficking investigations and task force collaboration. He holds master’s degrees in Human Behavior and Police Management & Leadership and continues to advance education, outreach, and justice initiatives through GCWJ. Key Points It is important to shift law enforcement’s focus from a traditional reactive approach (arresting perpetrators) to a proactive model that prioritizes prevention of human trafficking through holistic strategies. There is a strong focus on utilizing victim-centered, trauma-informed approaches in law enforcement to provide appropriate support for victims while addressing the dynamics between victims and perpetrators, rather than solely relying on arrests and punitive measures. There are financial implications of preventative versus reactive responses. Investing in preventive measures could ultimately be more cost-effective than dealing with the long-term consequences of exploitation and incarceration. Collaboration among various stakeholders—including law enforcement, social services, and community organizations—is necessary to effectively address human trafficking and to support prevention strategies that mitigate risk factors for exploitation. Resources Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force Bureau of Justice Assistance Visiting Fellows Health and Human Services gcwj.org Department of Social Services Enhanced Collaborative Model Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #334: Law Enforcement’s Role in Preventing Human Trafficking. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Derek Marsh, an old friend and frequent guest on the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. Derek serves as the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. He is adjunct faculty in the criminal justice major, a retired deputy chief of Westminster Police Department, and co founded the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force. He’s also been a former Bureau of Justice Assistance Visiting Fellow. Derek has worked extensively to improve labor trafficking investigations and Task Force collaboration. We are so grateful that he’s on our Global Center for Women and Justice team, and we’re eager to dive into this conversation. Derek, welcome. Derek Marsh 1:42 Thank you for having me again. Sandra Morgan 1:43 Yeah, it’s kind of hard not to run into you around here. Derek Marsh 1:47 You being the boss and telling me what to do kind of helps. Sandra Morgan 1:49 I know I love it, though, when you were the boss, but I get to have that role now, so it’s great. I’m excited because you know how much I love talking about prevention, and usually you’re talking about finding the bad guys, locking them up, and making sure they can’t do what they did ever again. But now, we’re going to look at this from the perspective that law enforcement has a role in preventing human trafficking. Let’s start with that question: How do we change our lens so that we’re more proactive instead of reactive? Derek Marsh 2:35 It’s a difficult lens to change, because a lot of our work in police work is we’re rewarded financially, or through evaluations, or through the public perception, by reacting to issues quicker. The sooner, the more long term that impact has, the greater we get that positive feedback. Human trafficking, unfortunately, isn’t always one of those situations where you can just pop in, make a quick arrest, refer a victim to a victim services provider, and think you have a win. I guess it is a win in the short term sense, but it’s not a win in the long term sense. After being retired, and thinking about these things, and teaching in the CJ, the Criminal Justice Department, I’ve come to think of prevention as being a much more holistic, complete response, as is just opposed to putting people in jail. Which I enjoy doing, I probably still would enjoy if I had the option, but I don’t know if that’s the actual answer in the long term for eliminating, or at least mitigating significantly, human trafficking. Sandra Morgan 3:39 Well, we’ve talked about prevention a lot on this task force, my background in pediatric nursing. I want to find how do we teach people to brush their teeth, that equivalent, so that we can end trafficking, really do prevention? And we’ve looked at prevention through the lens of the prevention framework at Health and Human Services, which really focuses on a primary prevention strategy, a public health agenda, and as well as a socio-ecological model. So can you help us see that in the context of criminal justice and law enforcement? Derek Marsh 4:27 Well, sure. So human trafficking has frequently been referred to as a public health crisis these days, and for good reason, there’s physiological issues, cognitive issues, societal issues, financial, economic issues that result as a result of the crime of human trafficking. Health and Human Services and most of the anti trafficking world these days, in our federal world, focus on the public health model, which has three different levels of prevention, if you will. You have your primary level which focuses on actually what we consider prevention, stopping something before it happens. We have secondary and tertiary, both which deal with reacting to an event, whether the person is a perpetrator or they’re experiencing exploitation or trafficking. The secondary deals with short term, basically arresting someone, putting them in jail, or just immediately identifying someone and offering them assistance. The tertiary deals with long term, so basically, how are you going to make that person stop being a perpetrator? Or how are you going to make sure that person who’s been a victim, survivor, not recidivate anymore, not go back, not get sucked back into the life, or not be further exploited by other people. Sandra Morgan 5:42 Give me an example, tell me a story that I can understand that. Derek Marsh 5:48 Well, here’s the thing. I’ll go back to the days of the dinosaurs when I was working on it. I mean, you go to a house, you get a report. Someone says there’s something fishy at this residence. It turns out to be a residential brothel. You go through your surveillance, you get your information about who owns the place. You get license plates, you see people repeatedly.You see if they have any warrants or anything like that. You go to a judge eventually say, “Well, this type of activity appears to be related to either drugs,” because they’re very similar in residential brothels, “or maybe it’spotentially human trafficking,” or some kind of pimping and pandering. So then you convince the judge based on your experience, and you move in, and you do a search warrant, and you find people who are being victimized. You find people who are victimizing them, and you find people who are offering them. From the idea of trying to figure out what’s happening ahead of time, we’re not. What we’re doing is we’re responding basically to a call for service, or to an observation from a citizen. We go there, we deal with the immediate situation, we close down the residential brothel. We identify who the perpetrators are and who the victim survivors are going to be, and in that short secondary prevention aspect, you’re dealing with the issue. We’re actually preventing, in a sense, right? Because that’s how that public health model works with that. On a long term basis, you’re looking to see how long can they be put in jail? Or maybe they can get some kind of restorative or rehabilitative justiceapplied to them so when they come out, they won’t do it again. On the victim/survivor side, you’re saying, how can we help them and provide services, we’re working with them so they don’t go back and fall into that, in this particular example, sex trafficking situation. But it works the same for labor as well. How can we make sure that they have a long-term, sustainable plan where they can get what they need as a person and realize and restore their personal dignity, while the same token not being subject to being victimized, exploited again? Sandra Morgan 7:47 So what that looks like in a day to day routine, I remember the day when if there was a call out on a brothel, which is illegal commercial sex, everybody got arrested. That model has changed now and there is more intentional concern for the people that are there, that might actually be there under coercion. Now, how does that fit into this scenario as an element of a prevention strategy? Derek Marsh 8:33 Exactly. You’re talking about like 20-30 years ago, where you go into a residential brothel, or you know wherever you go. You can go online now, same idea, “I need to find someone at a hotel,” the difference is minimal, but basically everyone who’s there is arrested. There’s no consideration for victim-centered, trauma-informed, culturally-aware, all those issues we now deal with, with human trafficking. From that non preventative at all, just strictly enforcement, deterrent, kind of, capacity mindset, you move into more of a reactive prevention sense that, “Hey, I see an issue. We’re going to address it. We’re victim-centered, trauma-informed, so we’re not going to try to trigger our folks,” I know that’s not the word we use, but we’re not going to try to trigger them. We’re not going to try to further traumatize them. We’re going to treat them as victim survivors, make sure they have agency in this process, we’re not going to put handcuffs on if we can avoid it, all those other things. Whereas we’re still arresting the perpetrators and keeping them separate. From the old school way of just taking them all to jail and we’ll sort them out there, to understanding there’s a victim/perpetrator dynamic that we need to be aware of, and that they’re not just victims and we’re not there to save them, we’re there to help liberate them so they can come to better terms and restore their dignity, and understand that we need collaborative effort to make that happen. The police aren’t solo. So that’s the evolution that we’re talking about when it comes to prevention. What the next level of evolution would be, would be to actually prevent it from ever happening at all, if that makes sense. You have, according to the public health model, your primary prevention is what you’re focusing on. You really want to, in the long run, create a space for people where they never get exploited, where they never feel they have to exploit others to get ahead, so that these people can live without having to go through this sexual trauma, the trauma of commercial labor, the idea of being exploited by people for financial ends, the idea of exploiting others for financial ends, that there are other alternatives that are more viable. That’s where the long-term end goal, if you’re asking me about anti trafficking, is to create a planet where that doesn’t occur. Sandra Morgan 10:52 So when we’re talking about prevention, then, we can imagine a continuum. We missed it, we didn’t teach them how to brush their teeth when they were one year old, and now they’re already in the midst of decay. They’ve been exploited. Our prevention is preventing further exploitation. Derek Marsh 11:18 Right, it’s always public health. Let’s look at a health example. You catch somebody and they have a cold, or a disease, or something like that. You break your arm? Okay, well that happened. We’re going to fix that arm, we’re going to reset it, we’re going to do what we need to do. It’ll be good as new. But they still broke their arm. You didn’t stop them from breaking their arm, or flu or whatever. But you could have avoided that through wearing a mask, washing your hands more frequently, or other things like that. You probably could have but again, we’re reacting to the public health world. I’m not saying that’s everything that public health does, but a lot of times it becomes reactive. What I’m saying is here, while we are very good and technically we are doing prevention by arresting people, referring them to resources, both short and long term, and that’s important, I’m not minimizing it. I’m saying it would also be good to focus on the third, the initial, the primary aspect of prevention, which is never have it happen at all. But these are often dealing with bigger issues, like poverty, like educational opportunity, like medical health access, like job opportunities, all those things that police aren’t normally associated with handling, which I agree with. However, you’re also in areas where you have to feel safe and secure, like your neighborhoods or your communities or your inner cities, and that is something police can partner with and help in an element of creating a safer, more secure environment that minimizes those factors that can promote the possibility of people being at risk of being exploited, or exploiting others because they feel they have no other options in their world. Sandra Morgan 12:59 So when I, as a nurse, approach something like this. I’m looking how to identify, how to find the protective factors. But in criminal justice, you have a model called Sarah. How does Sarah help you? Derek Marsh 13:18 In a public health world, there’s like four different levels, roughly. I’m taking this from the Health and Human Services Anti- Trafficking Framework, but they’re right. I’ve read others, and they’re very similar. You start with finding a problem, you want to monitor it. Then you want to ID your risk, maybe come up with some protective factors that would keep you from doing it. You develop and test some preventative strategies, and in the end, you walk away saying, “Okay, well, we’re going to adopt this worldwide and make it stop.” Well the criminal justice world does the same kind of thing, they call it problem oriented policing. Basically they have what they call the ceremony. Sandra Morgan 13:54 They call it what? Derek Marsh 13:55 Problem oriented policing. They identify an issue. Initially they survey something, they go, “Okay, well, we’re going to survey an issue,” let’s say burglaries or auto thefts, “and we’re going to look at and analyze this area, and figure out what’s going on.” So first, you’re going to survey it and see if it’s really a problem. Next, you’re going to analyze issues in your city, maybe there’s a particular parking lot, or maybe the mall, where a lot of people park, that’s where they’re losing their catalytic converters, or whatever the case may be. Then you’re going to find out, what are the MOS, how are people perpetrating these steps? At what times? How many people are involved? Are people ever seeing it happen? Those types of things. What kind of cars are being targeted? Then you’re going to say, “Okay, well, I want to respond a certain way.” As you’re patrolling a mall or you’re patrolling a larger parking lot space, then you can say, “Okay, well, I’m looking for this kind of car at this time of the day. Those seem to be the target areas by these people to focus on,” the perpetrators of it. At that point, you do a response for, let’s say, a month, and then you look at your monthly response, see how many people you’ve arrested or questioned, and does it lower the overall crime rate that’s reported there? Successful, not successful, and you go on to repeat the Sarah process again. Same thing that’s happening with public health, we just made it a little bit more simple for patrol officers and for people that are not trying to be researchers, they’re trying to address particular issues. So that’s the difference. Sandra Morgan 15:18 Okay, so this actually changes my frame of reference in my collaboration with my local law enforcement partners. Because I think in my mind, and I kind of feel like some of my listeners may identify with me, I think when I show up as the victim service providers, that you’re off duty now. You’re not helping with prevention anymore. I showed up, I’m taking care of this, but this makes it sound to me, more like you’re actively creating a strategy for that specific call out, when it gets repeated, that is going to also have the opportunity for widespread adoption, just like in the HHS plan. Derek Marsh 16:14 Sure, there are lots of programs in police work that you started, and for instance, even the Sarah if you think of it as a system of approach, or crime analysis, or things like that, where people started doing it, seeing the system works. It does work, whether you call it hotspot policing, whatever you want to call it, and you identify those issues that seem to be perpetuating and seem to be true issues in your particular community, and then you work on it. But again, it starts off as a reactive because you’re for things that are already happening, and then you try to figure out a strategy or process where you can, by doing a normal patrol, or by doing focus patrols, you can keep it from happening in the future. It’s easy to metric for police because we’re measuring the number of, let’s say, catalytic converter thefts. You know what it was six months ago or for the last six months, then you implement your program for three months, and you compare the numbers. Did it go down? Did it not go down? Or did it go down here but it went up in another part of the city? Prevention for human trafficking is that much harder to do, because while we are addressing on the secondary and tertiary ways of the immediate rest and identification of a potential victim survivor, giving them the care they need, and addressing the criminal justice consequences of perpetrating that crime. Are we really able to go back now and find issues that we can address, and mitigate those factors that make people vulnerable? That’s harder to measure, because how do I measure someone not being a victim? Especially when we went around telling everybody, “Hey, we’re not counting well to begin with.” We’re only hitting the tip of the iceberg, right? Maybe we only had two reports, and now, after you implement a program, you have only two reports. But think about it, maybe there were five reports you would have had, as opposed to the two reports, if you hadn’t done what you were doing. For instance, people being recruited outside of high schools. Why not stick a cop car ,or person out there, or a collaborative partner, whatever, to help make sure that those people don’t get to interact? All the underlying things, the things that are behind the scenes, behind the curtain, are those being stopped? You want to hope so, but you don’t know until later on, until you’re able to take an entire look at the history of how it’s working. Sandra Morgan 18:23 Don’t we have to consider how much that’s going to cost, to have somebody parked outside a high school every day at three o’clock when the bell rings? Derek Marsh 18:31 Sure. We’re paying for people to be there anyway, though. You’re paying for law enforcement to be there. Now, they have to respond to calls for service, and so you’re looking at special programs. But what’s the cost of treating someone who’s a victim of human trafficking? What’s the psychological cost? It’s very difficult to put a number on. What’s their impact, as far as their ability to work in our society? What’s the cost of someone you arrest who’s exploiting people? How much do we pay for them in prison? I think the last numbers I’d seen were anywhere from 35 to $55,000 a year, to house and feed somebody in jail, in prison. So that’s a lot of money. The idea here is that if you get a school resource officer, for instance, and then have them be at the school and be aware of these things, and just take their time when school ends, instead of hanging out in an office space or whatever, go outside and just walk outside the school, see who interacting with the students. Sandra Morgan 19:22 If we start looking at primary prevention, because you want us to measure things. Measuring victims isn’t working very well because we can only measure what we find, and that’s very spotty, depends on resources for recovery, who has a grant to pay salaries, those kinds of funding issues. So if we look at the cost of prevention over the cost of deterrence, by putting somebody in jail, or the cost of prevention compared to the cost of restoration, then maybe we start placing higher value on prevention strategies. Because in our 5 P model, prevention typically does not get as well funded. Derek Marsh 20:21 Again, as we’re thinking of prevention in the 5 P model, or as we think about it from the federal level, even while HHS has come up with this three-level, public health model of prevention, again, technically, we are doing prevention by funding police and funding social service providers to handle situations that are already occurring. To intervene and help people stop, or help liberate them from their situation so they can get better care and self care, to arrest perpetrators or people pursuing those types of trafficking activities. From a secondary and tertiary perspective, they are funding prevention. But it’s that difficult to measure, because we’re so obsessed with measurement and making sure we get it right, which is important, but difficult to measure, quantitative way of saying, “Hey, how do I show that my efforts prior to that, my community outreach efforts, my environmental design efforts, where I’m trying to create better lighted neighborhoods, neighborhood watch, things like that, help actually prevent people from being victimized or susceptible to financial poverty issues, to being susceptible to poor schooling?” Those are things that you have to have partnerships, because it’s not criminal justice anymore, it’s partnerships with other people, other groups in the community, other federal groups, local groups, that can help mitigate and change those issues. Sandra Morgan 21:45 You’re sliding into the socioecological model, and that feels overwhelming to address. How do we break it down so that everyday people, like me, can keep it all organized in my thinking? Derek Marsh 22:05 I would say that if you’re going to break it down, or you’re going to look at these different elements or factors, we’ve known the Steven model, for instance, that you and I have developed. You look at what Steven stands for; sociocultural, then you have T for technological issues online. There’s a lot of issues with those, access and things like that. You have ecological, you have your economic, you have your political, you have your historical, and when you put all these things together, then you can look for their connectivity, their issues, how people are networking together, the collaborations, and you come up with strategies and tactics on how to address those issues. We have the Steven which is the same as their socioecological model, and that’s fine in some ways, but again, on a line level, cop on the street, ‘how do I do prevention?,’ it doesn’t help. Because they don’t have that skill set. Their job is to enforce laws to make sure people are safe and secure. How do you do that day to day? You do it through programs. We did a program once where we were called out to ahousehold where gang activity was occurring, or to a place where drug activity was occurring, or even domestic violence, we would actually refer the kids who were experiencing this, through observation, hopefully not directly through abuse, to schools. We would have a whole program set up for them to show that they could work together with the police, and with educational groups, and with nonprofit organizations, to show there’s much more to life than just watching their parents, or the people in their homes, or their brothers or sisters or whoever, abuse each other, exploit each other, take advantage of each other. We gave them a more positive example, if you will. Those things are possible, it takes some finances to back them up, but we put a lot of money into arresting people, and we put a lot of money into treating people. And guess what? I think treating people and arresting people are important things to do, but I also think that you can’t arrest your way out of the crime. We talked to John Cotton Richmond, he said that multiple times. I don’t think you’re going to, in a way, you can help people get better from a psychological, emotional, cognitive perspective, and that’s important to do, but I think not ever having them experience those types of issues is way better. From a financial perspective, and also from a personal perspective, from a societal perspective, probably just a lot more healthy people walking around. Sandra Morgan 24:28 Does this then support the enhanced collaborative model for task forces? Derek Marsh 24:35 100%. I mean prevention was like, I look at the original three: prevention, protection, prosecution, and in a sense, those are the three groups, or even one of those is people, but three activities that are really at the heart of anti trafficking. We look at prevention, we’re looking at the same things we always have before. You want to identify what’s going on, you want to come up with solutions, you want to make sure that you can intervene, to make sure people don’t even get involved. If that doesn’t work, then you fall back on your people who need support for what has occurred to them already, or what they are doing to others. And that’s okay, it’s a necessary part of the entire system, but I would hope that as we get more mature, and as we’ve been doing this now, it started in 2000 and we’re in 2024, so 24 years down the line, we could keep putting a lot of money into arresting people and treating people, and those are important things to do, and I’m not minimizing the importance of it, but I think an equal, and if not, greater, amount of money could just be put into programs or research that can help us identify how you mitigate these factors in society, in individuals, in communities, that can create an opportunity for people not to have to experience any of that at all. Sandra Morgan 25:48 Well, and no one can have the attitude that, “My particular role in this process is the key piece to this.” I remember when we did a study abroad with our students here from Vanguard in Romania, and we were invited to do a training for all the domestic violence police sergeants, I’m not sure about… Derek Marsh 26:18 In Bucharest. Sandra Morgan 26:19 Yeah, in Bucharest, and they wanted to understand how to do a better job of intervening in domestic violence, and learn to apply that in the work on anti sex trafficking. What we discovered, I still remember trying to answer some questions, because in our presentation, we had the experience of we had a list of people to call when we had something happening. They didn’t have a number to call for somebody to show up, and so the only place to take the victim was to the police station, and that, to me, sounds like a criminal justice adjustment that requires that Enhanced Collaborative Model, and with this socioecological prevention strategy, we start integrating that in all five P’s, instead of only having it in the first P. Derek Marsh 27:29 I agree, and I think that you have to understand the historical context. We went in there with the great intention of helping them understand anti trafficking. Within five minutes of that presentation, they wanted to talk about domestic violence, because for them, that was the more immediate issue that led to people potentially being exploited and maybe even being pimped or pandered. We switched gears right away. We’re like, okay, that’s what you need to talk about, and that’s what we’re going to talk about. We had two hours of a great training with a room full of cops in Bucharest, to understand what it took to address domestic violence, which, again, is a type of exploitation, a type of physical, powerful exploitation, where you have victims and you have perpetrator. It is an element, in many cases, of some human trafficking situations as well. So mission accomplished, we worked on anti trafficking, but we understand the historical context. They had just gotten the idea of a restraining order, which was brand new to them. They were just starting to be allowed to actually go into someone’s home if there was a report of domestic violence, as opposed to standing outside the door and hearing things without being able to do anything about it. Those were issues that they were working through, and that mindset was changing. Sandra Morgan 28:39 And the other thing that happened, because we’ve got to tell you guys the rest of the story, is the nonprofit that we were working with suddenly realized that they could help. They created a contact card that these police officers could have in their cargo pants when they needed to reach out for victim services in one of those situations. They had a community partner so they could do this enhanced collaborative model. It was a game changer. Derek Marsh 29:13 Sure, and again, the local line level officers aren’t usually going to be able to recognize who those players are, who those NGOs are, who those service providers are. They may have a General Department, like Department of Social Services, but they’re not going to be able to say, how can we help if we just want to get independent help, short of the Department of Social Services. Because nobody wants to be on the radar in a federal, or municipal, or city sense. They can go to get individual help without making it aware to their partner ,if they’re being abused or whatever. The idea being that the whole collaboration makes sense. Again, instead of having to get a call for service, or experience excessive or any kind of domestic violence, those cars can potentially save people, not just people there, but if they’re shared out, they can share it with people who might be a victim, but realize there are other ways that they can handle those issues. Sandra Morgan 30:06 Derek, you and I have worked together for a very long time, 20 years. Wow. Derek Marsh 30:13 Sorry. Sandra Morgan 30:14 I’ve changed my mind on a few things, especially when it comes to working with police officers, federal agents, investigating. What have you changed your mind about? Derek Marsh 30:30 I would say, definitely the importance of the victim-centered, trauma-informed approach. I think I had that, to some degree more esoterically, like theoretically, it made sense, but seeing it on the ground helped me just bring it into my heart. But also the idea that it’s great to arrest people, again, love doing it. I know it sounds bad but there’s certain closure to taking somebody who’s abusing somebody and putting them in jail. However, much better in the long run, I think much better for the people involved, that they never get in those situations before. I’ve kind of lost my cop hat to some degree, after being retired as long as I have, and seeing that prevention and understanding that people, if we can keep them from even being exploited or exploiting others, is a much more long term, societally comprehensive solution than just throwing on some handcuffs and throwing them into a jail cell. Liberating a person who’s been exploited and providing them with services, but them having to struggle with those issues and the trauma for the rest of their lives. Sandra Morgan 31:34 Yet I still remember you teaching me that we can’t have tree huggers only, and I was the resident tree hugger, at a scene, because it wasn’t safe. If you could just tell me again, teach me again why we do have to have cops, police officers who are there for the public safety, and why that’s important for the victim as well as the rest of us in the room. Derek Marsh 32:13 Yeah, I’m perilously close to hugging trees when I talk like I’m talking. Sandra Morgan 32:16 I know, oh my gosh. Derek Marsh 32:18 It’s killing me, I see the tree. It’s close, I can almost reach it. But the reality is that police serve a function. I think we’ve seen our lane. The idea here that we’re trying to enforce laws, but we’re also trying to keep communities safe. There needs to be a line. And then people, as a community, draw that line themselves, awesome. That’s what it should be, really. But if they can’t, or they won’t, then there needs to be other people, like ourselves, police, to go up and say, “This is the line, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.” If you cross that line from a criminal perspective, there are consequences, accountability. But also if you’re a person who’s being victimized in a crime, then you need someone there to be able to say, “Look, I can take you out of this space when you’re not thinking clearly yourself, when you’re in a horrible situation, when mentally and habitually you’re just used to that kind of experience, and you think it’s normalized, then you need someone to help liberate you from that, or a group to help liberate from that.” Not that we’re riding white horses or we’re knights, or that you can’t liberate yourself, I get all that. But sometimes we all have weak moments, or we have times in our lives where having somebody there to support you and to offer you the options, is important. I think that’s where police fit in. I would be a horrible person to provide long term counseling. Definitely not, too many trees around, I’ll get confused. But I mean, can I identify someone who haspotential challenges and needs some help? 100%. Then I can direct them to people who are experienced, have that training and education, to give them the best opportunity to engage in a way that they can help heal themselves and make that informed decision. Then I win too. Not only do I get somebody into handcuffs, if that’s what’s needed, but I also have somebody who has been liberated from not just physical handcuffs maybe, but also from a psychological exploitation and the handcuffs that people put upon them through coercion, force, and other ways of manipulating others. Sandra Morgan 34:24 That’s good. That’s so good. To close out this episode, Derek Marsh runs our anti human trafficking certificate program. Derek, would you tell our listeners how to access that and what the breadth of it is. Derek Marsh 34:44 We have an anti human trafficking certificate program. It works for both professional level folks and for people who want to do academic as well. The professional costs are much less than the academic because you don’t get units. However, we have 13 different courses. We’re always adjusting them for current activities and things that are going on in the world. We have people who teach who are active in the field, or have been in the field, have actually worked in anti trafficking before, so it can help in a mentor perspective. They are eight weeks, and if you do four courses, the Basic Human Trafficking Overall View, the Ethics and Human Trafficking are the core, if you will, required courses. Then we have other courses, CSEC, actually Prevention is one of the courses I’m teaching right now. There’s Sex Trafficking, Labor Trafficking, Immigration Issues. We have a bunch of different courses that, depending on where your bent is and where you want to look at, can work. Faith Based and Faith Based Work With Human Trafficking, reflected on by your book that you wrote with your partner. Again, the idea here is to make people more informed about what trafficking is about. You take the courses, you get a certificate saying that you’ve been through what we’re doing and we’re providing. I think in the end, being more informed at that level, whether you’re going to be a police officer or a social worker, you can work at a church or you can work in a business. You can work in a medical facility, it doesn’t matter, all of us can apply some of that information, some of those techniques and strategies where you work, to help people understand what’s going on and maybe intervene in those situations as they go. Sandra Morgan 36:20 Where are you going to find that? Derek Marsh 36:22 You’re going to find it online. You just look under vanguard.edu, and we’re there. If you go to our gcwj.org, you can find that information there, and there’s links there to go to Vanguard. It’s a very straightforward process. You don’t have to have a degree to get in the program. You have to be pursuing a degree to get in the program, though, of course, you can get units. All those are options you can do. In fact, I’ve been very blessed in a sense, that a lot of times when people look for anti trafficking education, we populate on the first page in Google, which I have no idea how that worked out, but great for us, and hopefully great for you if you’re able to take advantage of it. Sandra Morgan 36:57 We love being a resource, because we do believe education is key to prevention. Derek, thank you so much for helping out today on episode #334. Derek Marsh 37:12 Thank you for having me. Sandra Morgan 37:14 Listeners, we want you to know that in the show notes there will be links to all the things Derek and I talked about. If you have more questions, you can go to feedback and send those questions in. Your next step, if you’re not already a subscriber, is to go over to endinghumantrafficking.org and sign up. You’ll get a newsletter every two weeks, telling you that a new episode is dropped with information about what was in that episode. Follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and tell your friends to join us as we study the issues so we can be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Josie Heyano as the two discuss the importance of bridging communities to prevent human trafficking. Josie Heyano Josie Heyano, LMSW, is a Deg Xinag Athabascan advocate from Alaska, focused on creating holistic and decolonized practices to serve Alaska Native and Indigenous communities impacted by human trafficking. With extensive experience supporting youth facing homelessness, exploitation, and trafficking, she founded Signify Consulting, LLC, to further her collaboration in anti-trafficking work across Alaska. Josie is a Presidentially appointed member of the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking, advising federal policy, and in 2023, she received the FBI Director’s Community Leadership Award for her contributions to prevention and intervention in Alaska. Her work honors her great aunt Linda Miller and others still awaiting justice. Key Points Traditional introductions are important as they reflect relationships and community ties, highlighting accountability and cultural identity. Serving on the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking, Josie highlights the importance of humility and listening to voices within her community that are often unheard. She cites a recent visit by the council to Alaska as an opportunity to humanize the data and issues surrounding human trafficking. Human trafficking is a symptom of broader systemic issues, such as domestic violence, homelessness, and mental health crises. There is a need for a holistic approach that addresses these interconnected challenges within Indigenous communities. The Alaska Human Trafficking Data Needs Assessment revealed gaps in data and understanding regarding trafficking. Community relationships and collaboration across different sectors (service providers, law enforcement, academia) are necessary to improve data collection and response strategies. Cultural practices and community care can serve as protective factors against human trafficking. It is necessary to integrate traditional values and practices into prevention efforts, focusing on unconditional care, relationship building, and addressing basic community needs. A preventative approach that extends beyond immediate trafficking interventions includes ensuring that community members have access to essential resources, support systems, and a sense of belonging from birth, thus preventing vulnerability to trafficking in the first place. Active, compassionate engagement with community members fosters safety and well-being. Resources U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking FBI Director’s Community Leadership Award 277: Navajo Nation Interview, with First Lady Phefelia Nez Prevention Now Data For Indigenous Justice Missing and Murdered Indigenous Girls Report Ride my Road Not Invisible Act Commission Report Federal Indian Boarding Schools Report ACF MMIP Action Plan Alaska Native Justice Center Signify Consulting Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #333: Bridging Communities: Indigenous Approaches to Combating Human Trafficking. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference. Our guest today is Josie Heyano. Josie is a presidentially appointed member of the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking, advising federal policy. In 2023 she received the FBI Director’s Community Leadership Award for her contributions to prevention and intervention in Alaska. Her work honors her great aunt, Linda Miller and others still awaiting justice. I’m so grateful for you to be here with us today, Josie, and I’d like to start with a traditional introduction please. Josie Heyano 1:30 Thank you, Sandra, good morning. Ade’ yixudz everyone. My name is Josie Heyano. I am Deg Xinag Athabascan. My mother’s family is from the village of Tanana on the Yukon River. My mother is Naina Heyano. My paternal grandparents are the late Paul and Mary Star and Alfred Miller of Anvik. My father is David Heyano from the village of Ekuk in Bristol Bay. And my paternal grandparents are the late Pete and Rosa Heyano, also of Ekuk village. It’s great to be here with you today. Sandra Morgan 2:06 Thank you. And for some of our listeners, would you please give us a little background on the traditional introductions? Josie Heyano 2:19 Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you giving space for that introduction. It’s a really important part of how I show up, because that’s how I was taught to introduce myself. You’re taught to introduce yourself to explain your relationships, and part of that is culturally, our relationships are how we exist in the world, who we are, how we want to be seen. When I tell you that my grandmother is Mary Star and my grandpa is Alfred Miller, and I tell you about Pete and Rosa Heyano, that means that I show up to this conversation as a representation of them, and that when I introduce myself for people listening to me, they can know who my family is and know where I come from. A piece of that is accountability too, right? I always think people in the audience know my family, know the communities I come from, and it’s really important for me to speak with integrity and to speak clearly and to speak with pride. More importantly for me, is throughout my professional career, you get degrees and letters, and things like that, but the more important thing is not titles that I hold, but who I am and how I came to be here. Sandra Morgan 3:34 Let’s talk about your degrees and your titles in addition to this, because that is also how you show up. Josie Heyano 3:42 Yeah, of course. I’ve been very fortunate to be able to pursue some really wonderful academic channels. I am a graduate of the University of Alaska Fairbanks. They have an incredible social work program. I am, first and foremost, academically, a social worker. I practice social work here in Alaska, and I got my masters at the University of Kentucky. I just finished up my clinical hours, so I will shortly be sitting for my licensing exam to be able to be a licensed clinical social worker. I think that’s about it for degrees. Sandra Morgan 4:23 Oh my goodness. Well, you’re definitely an amazing leader now in this space, and you’re serving at the highest level in our nation. I’m curious what that means to you in the context of how you just shared about showing up. Josie Heyano 4:48 I think serving at the level of the U.S. Advisory Council has meant having a tremendous amount of humility. Paying attention to the voices in my community that maybe haven’t been heard, to the topics and the issues that haven’t had the attention that they need, and doing my best to voice those, and to bring education, to bring awareness, to help people understand some of the issues facing my community. We were very privileged this year, the entire U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking actually came to Alaska with my first my persuasion. They got to walk on the streets downtown, and they got to be a part of our community and meet the people who live these experiences here. That was a really wonderful opportunity. But I think in my role in the advisory council that was my job, was to bring the members here, have them meet the people that we write about, and to bring a humanness to this work too, and remind us that we are doing really high level federal work. Behind some of those numbers and some of that research, and some of the data, are people and experiences, and that’s been a really beautiful part of being a part of the council. Sandra Morgan 6:10 My experience, and you may have listened, I interviewed Phefelia Nez, who was leading this effort with the Navajo Nation, and we have partnered. We’ve had conversations about some of the larger systemic issues, missing and murdered Indigenous women, and Human trafficking as maybe an umbrella or a symptom. How do you see that? Josie Heyano 6:13 Yeah, I definitely see it as a symptom. I think in my federal work, I’ve gotten to have a lot more conversations with leaders and matriarchs across the country who are leading this work in their community. I do think that human trafficking, I do look at it as a symptom. I appreciate you bringing up the missing murdered indigenous relatives conversation, because most of my work has been centered on we can’t talk about human trafficking and then talk about our missing, murdered indigenous relatives crisis. These are the conversations that we need to have together, and it is the conversation that needs to include domestic violence. It needs to include our relatives who are houseless. It needs to include mental health services, substance use services. It needs to include harm reduction. It’s really having a more holistic conversation about human trafficking, so that’s been primarily where I focused my work locally in the community, is helping to bridge that conversation and be able to talk about these issues together. Sandra Morgan 7:53 One of the things that intrigued me as I read more about your work is you did a fellowship with prevention now, and out of that, you co-created the Alaska Human Trafficking Data Needs Assessment, which seems to fit or have an overlay with your comments just now, with all of these aspects systemically. Can you tell me about that? Josie Heyano 8:23 I was so excited to talk about that today. My good friend Kristen Harris, CEO and founder of Prevention Now, I had actually just reached out to her as a college intern looking for practicum placement, and said, “Hey, I’m living in Alaska, and I’m struggling,” because I was working direct service, and I was kind of at the point in a person’s life where they had already experienced trafficking, and it was becoming really prominent to me that we didn’t have a lot of prevention, and we weren’t having a lot of conversations in our communities about what trafficking is. So Kristen, being the amazing human being she is, just took me under her wing and allowed me to just research and have the resources with her. That Data Needs Assessment was actually a result of; we first thought we would gather the data that existed to start to see what some of the regional factors were that were causing trafficking, and that we were going to use Kristen’s AI model to find that out. What we realized was: there wasn’t data, or at least there wasn’t data that made sense. There was data that had a lot of different definitions of trafficking. There was data with a lot of different types of people collecting those data, and there was a lot of data that wasn’t talking to each other, so there was duplicated data. There was no real way to get a clear picture of what’s the understanding. And when we started talking to people about data, the other thing that was really interesting about this project is we also got a weariness. We’re talking to direct service providers, and law enforcement, and educators, and healthcare workers who are very often underfunded and under resourced. Then we bring up the data question, which translates to the notes that you didn’t do, or the extra box to check. The Data Needs Assessment really transformed into not only what are you using to track human trafficking related data, but how do you feel about data? How does data impact your work? How do you value or see data as important in this conversation? I think that really opened up a different type of conversation, which was that people did value data and were simultaneously overwhelmed by it, and didn’t necessarily see it as helpful to them in their role. When we started the Human Trafficking Data Summit and we partnered with Data for Indigenous Justice, hopefully we can provide a link to their website, they are a local, nonprofit organization. My good friend Aqpik founded that one as well, and that’s all about reclaiming indigenous data, and they actually curated the first Alaska list of Missing, Murdered and Indigenous Relatives. One thing I’ll add about that too, is the first report that Data for Indigenous Justice released, there were 229 names curated in that report of missing relatives, which is the number of tribes that we have here in Alaska. It was a really powerful number. Sandra Morgan 11:23 Wow. Josie Heyano 11:24 But the data Summit, really, above all else, became kind of a gathering of women. This is kind of a strange way to take this conversation, but when I think back on the data summit and how that came to be, we also partnered with ride my road. So my friend Lauren came, has strong connections in Alaska. She came and volunteered her time, and it was a bunch of women who said, “We recognize this is a problem in the community. What are we going to do? How do we start the conversation?” And we recognized that in order to start having this conversation, we needed to have relationship with each other. We needed to have relationship with the people in the work, and this was kind of right after COVID, too. We also recognized, we need to bring people together again, and so we did. We had a very small event. Our very first Human Trafficking Data Summit was in a small community area, and it was wonderful. We had people from multi disciplines come and show up and be a part of the conversation. More importantly, though, I think we just spent time with each other. We got to know each other, we got to know each other’s work, and we invested in the relationships that we had with each other. I think that’s what has developed, for me, into a larger impact, is that we didn’t just come to talk about data, we came to actually care about the work that we were all doing and show up for each other. Sandra Morgan 12:54 I think we’re moving into a space where we can shift the conversation, shift the narrative from, “Here are all the bad things happening, here’s the vulnerability,” to some kind of approach, strategic plan for how we’re going to do prevention and protect our community. Can you speak to that? Josie Heyano 13:28 I can definitely speak to that. One of the things that I’m really excited about is just, especially with my my federal platform, getting to meet people across the country. There is so much being done in tribal communities right now that really focuses on our culture, and our culture as a prevention and as a protective factor. I think even if you look in this last four years, what the Biden-Harris administration has done to emphasize work on Missing, Murdered Indigenous People, and to really address that crisis. We’ve seen the Not Invisible Act Commission Report.We’ve seen the the Federal Boarding School Report. We’ve seen all of these reports that are really putting data and information to the things that we have known in our communities for a long time, and so through that we’ve also seen a lot of focus on culture. A lot of focus on combating human trafficking through the lens of ‘we actually already know how to do this,’ and how we know how to do this is caring for our community. And so many people say it better than I do, so many other indigenous leaders across the nation. If we’re going to have the human trafficking conversation, if we’re going to show up and care about combating human trafficking, we have to show up and care about each other. We have to care about every member of our community. We have to have spaces for people to be fed. We have to have spaces for people to be warm, and clothed, and cared for. Ultimately, we have to have spaces for people to experience connection, to be in relationship with each other, and to know that they are valued, and they’re important, and sacred. I think that’s what makes me the most excited right now, is there are so many programs across the country, and more needed here in Alaska, I’ll say, but that are starting to emphasize that the way that we combat human trafficking doesn’t have to look like the checklist that other people, in other places are using. It can actually be the way that we’ve always addressed harm, which is to just unconditionally care for people. There’s so much beauty in that, there’s so much ease when you take the step back and say, “Human trafficking isn’t this complex, unapproachable topic that we don’t know what to do with. Actually, as Native people we do know, inherently, how to care for and protect everyone in our community.” I think seeing the programs across the country that are emerging, that are focusing on culture as the protective factor, I’m thinking about programs in the lower 48 where there are naming ceremonies for trafficking survivors, where they get to be named by their community and really hold the power of that name and learn what that means. I’m thinking of programs where there are sweat lodges, there are ceremony incorporated into the healing process, and the recognition that that might not be right for everybody, so having nuance within that to make sure that we can help whoever is impacted by harm in the best way possible. I think in the Alaska version of this, I’m better at talking about Alaska and my community, that looked like, when I was working direct care, there was kind of this, “Here’s a list of things to do for a trafficking survivor,” and I used to, probably to people’s dismay, throw that list out the window, because it was ridiculous. What I actually needed to do was to sit and have tea. What I actually needed to do sometimes was to just sit, and sometimes just to say, “My door is always open and I see you, and you can be here anytime that you want,” and to have those non transactional relationships, and to just see people and to show up and care about them unconditionally. I think when I think of culture, that’s what I think of, that piece there, where there is no transaction in our relationship. I accept you and respect you and care for you, because you are you, and that’s a really important piece of this conversation. Sandra Morgan 17:50 Integrating those traditional values and practices in the healing and restoration, I keep going back to, because I find it so amazing, the Alaska Human Trafficking Data Needs Assessment. Now, how do you take that and leverage it in your comment earlier about accountability? Josie Heyano 18:19 Actually, the Alaska Native Justice Center here in town, is getting ready with a new Data Needs Assessment that I’m excited to see come out, kind of a chapter two of this. But what we did with that Data Needs Assessment was we had another summit, and this one was bigger, and this one was fantastic. We had, well they were both fantastic, last- oh my goodness, that was actually this Spring, I think. Time is so strange lately. We had the Data Summit again this Spring, we had it at the local library, and we had so many more participants, we had so many more workshops and speakers. This time, we really said, “Okay, here’s what we know is missing, how are we going to address these things?” We brought in people from academia, and we said, “Who are the researchers? Who is in programs right now and you’re looking for a thesis? Who needs a question to be asked to our community?” Here are now the service providers who have a problem. Let’s pair the service providers and the researchers together in the same room so that they can actually understand, so that the researchers aren’t just asking the question they think needs to be asked, they’re hearing from the service providers, “Here’s where the gap is.” Then we took the law enforcement and Department of Law, and prosecutors in the room and we said, what is it that you’re struggling to prosecute? What is it that you’re struggling to see and understand? And we took those service providers, and we took those people with lived experience, and we put them in a room to say, ‘where are the gaps?’ Where might someone not want to tell you what their story is because of how some of these laws work? And so we really asked people to come together and to be solution focused in this, and to say, “Hey, from what we know from the data, the data is not great. And why is that?” Well, the biggest reason was that we’re not talking to each other. We’re kind of creating our own data systems, our own methods of combating human trafficking in a really siloed way, which was not unique. I think we’ve seen that across the country, but I think what was really unique about the Needs Assessment leading to the Data Summit is that we really intentionally said, “We’re not going to set up zoom meetings. We’re not going to just continue to be in groups or task force, or whatever you want to call them, we’re actually going to get together in a room, and we’re going to try to solve a few problems while we’re there together.” I think what came out of that was really deep, meaningful relationships and groups of people who historically are not in the same room together, or who have maybe feared being in the same room together. We created safe places where people could come and have the conversations, because we all had a mutual interest, we all had a mutual goal, and because of that, we were able to have conversations with each other that we hadn’t had before. Sandra Morgan 21:17 I am just so inspired and encouraged by your vision for the future of integrating your own cultural practices with decades of challenges that we’re all facing in this movement. I’ve been in it a really long time, so listening to you is extremely encouraging for me, and I’m going to send this interview to some of my other friends who are also, the word you used at the beginning is weary. We need your generation, Josie, to bring all of your excitement, your energy, and your big questions. I also wanted to work into our conversation a little bit about Savannah’s Act and how that may have influenced the conversation in indigenous communities. Can you take just a couple minutes to speak to that? Josie Heyano 22:28 It’s a little early, and I don’t have a lot of the dates and facts off the top of my head, but I think most impactful to me coming out of Savannah’s Act was the Not Invisible Act Commission. Most impactful for that, for me, were the listening sessions. Part of the Not Invisible Act Commission’s work in their first report, was going to communities and listening. I think that goes back to the conversation we were just having about the Data Summit, which was really what that was about, right? We need to listen to each other, we need to listen to the stories being told, and we need to understand from those stories, not showing up with our bias, or our anger, or our weariness, but to show up and hear each other. That was really impactful for me. That was actually one of the first times that I spoke or addressed anyone on a federal level about what was happening in my community, and I got to speak for the very first time at a federal level, I got to sit there and say, “Our Alaska Native youth are dying and are being killed, and are going missing and they are being murdered, and human trafficking is a common denominator in so many of these cases, and it’s not anywhere. It’s not in our news, it’s not in our community discussions.” Sometimes for me, that was a lot of anger. I was coming out of years of direct service where I was seeing people harmed. I was seeing a lot of harm because of trafficking, and still, our community wasn’t really having a very high level trafficking conversation, or too high level, you might say. We talk about the weariness. One of the things I always notice is how tired I am of having the Human Trafficking 101, conversation. I really appreciated the Not Invisible Act Commission. I really appreciate the work in Savannah’s Act to help create coordinated community response plans, and to start having more community efforts in our tribal villages, our reservations. Here in Alaska, we are PL280 states, so we don’t have reservations in the same way that the lower 48 does. But Savannah’s Act and Not Invisible Act, really helped to start to tell some of those stories and to create action from those stories. For me, it was a lot of forward momentum. Sandra Morgan 24:46 You’ve created a lot of interest for me now, to learn those stories, and I’m going to be seeking them out. I’ve already started making a list of people you’ve mentioned that I’m going to ask you to introduce me to, but I I want to go down the path of what you see for the future in prevention. We started out Prevention Now, prevention is one of my heart’s desires. I go into the schools, we equip our students here at Vanguard to go into the schools. What can we do for indigenous people groups for prevention? Josie Heyano 25:30 When I think about prevention and the human trafficking conversation, I like to ask people to take a step back from just the trafficking conversation. I struggle in this space a lot because I don’t identify strongly with ‘lived experience expert,’ I don’t identify strongly with ‘survivor.’ I don’t know many other Alaska Native women that have not had similar experiences as me. The data, which is terrible, and Alaska shows that we have all survived many things, and we also have these incredible gifts and these incredible protective factors that make us these immovable forces. I think when I show up to the trafficking conversations, my first thing is we have to take a step back. We see the excitement with trafficking, where people want to lean in and they want to do the work, and we know that it’s a problem in our communities, and I ask people to take a step back and look around. Yes, we want to prevent human trafficking, and the way that we do that is what I said earlier. Do people have places to live? Do people have food? Do people have clothing? Are our relatives outside and cold right now? Because if they are, we’re not preventing human trafficking, and we can’t only care about their lives and their value when trafficking occurs, that’s not okay. We have to care about the humanity and the livelihood of every member of our community from the very beginning, not just when a crime has occurred. That’s where I think I find the most heartache sometimes, and balance it with where I do the most service, is we have a lot of members of our community that are struggling and that are not seen as valued or worthy of resources. For prevention efforts, I would ask service providers, what are your policies? Who’s turned away at your door, who is not able to access services, and how can we amend that? Locally here, we have a lot of people who will not be able to access services because they use substances. We have a lot of people that won’t be able to access services because through their lifespan, they’ve never had the access to mental health interventions and services that could have supported a better, safer, and just overall better well being for them. It’s really hard for me sometimes when people say, “We want to fight trafficking,” and it’s the same people who don’t want to fund housing programs, who don’t want to fund community food banks, who don’t want to fund community centers. It goes down even further than that. When we go to our villages, our reservations, our communities, is there clean water? Is there access to healthy, nutritious food? Do young people have a place to go to experience connection, belonging, mentorship? Is there a sense of pride of who you are and where you come from? Is there a way to instill that if there’s not? Those are the things that are prevention to me. I have never met someone in Alaska, in my work, who experienced trafficking, that didn’t have a very long, long story that started far before a trafficking experience occurred. We can’t just show up when it’s trafficking, and prevention means from the day that young person is born, all throughout their life, do all members of our community have safety, have access to community? I think above all else, my grandma Mary Ellen taught me this, and she didn’t teach it because she preached it or she said it in words, I just watched her. My grandma loved people unconditionally. You didn’t have to say the right thing, dress the right way, look the right way, she just loved you. She wouldn’t even say that necessarily, but you could tell in her actions that she would never treat people unkind. She would never snub her nose at people. She would never have judgment. She just knew and understood how complicated it is to be human, and how much all of us need to be seen, to experience connection, and to have another human being look at us with value and respect. When I think prevention, that’s what I try to do in my role. It’s not the big frameworks, it’s not the big systems, those are helpful. Number one, prevention: how do you go out every day in your community and show the people around you that they’re cared about? Sandra Morgan 26:36 We talk about for kids here, if they have one adult attachment, one person who sees them, and knows them, and cares: that is prevention. I feel like today, I’ve had the opportunity to become a little bit of a part of your community, Josie, and I want my listeners to follow you. How can they find you? Josie Heyano 30:14 Absolutely. I have a small consultancy. I had to kind of formalize it because I was just going out and talking at people, and then people would want to know more information. I have a website, signifyconsultingak.org. There’s ways to get in contact with me on that website, I’m also on LinkedIn. You can find me under Josie Heyano, but those are probably the two best places to get in touch. Right now, my work is pretty locally focused, especially I think these next few years, I’m really going to turn my attention to my local community to see where the need is and to be more connected in that way. I still do some work in the federal spaces, but my heart is really on the ground, with people still. Sandra Morgan 31:33 Josie Heyano, what a pleasure to have you with us today. For our listeners, we’re inviting you to go to the endinghumantrafficking.org website, where you’ll find these show notes and links to the things that Josie has talked to us about. It’s also a great opportunity to start subscribing to the newsletter where you’ll get an alert when a new episode drops. Follow us on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, and I’ll be back in two weeks for our next episode.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Peter Baynard-Smith as the two discuss Hagar International’s Community-Based Care Model. Peter Baynard-Smith Peter brings over 20 years of international development experiences across Africa, Asia, UK, Ireland and Australia, working with World Vision, Concern Worldwide, Tearfund, Engineers without Borders, and most recently the Brotherhood of St Laurence. As Asia Regional Director with Concern, Peter managed country programs across South and SE Asia, including in Livelihood Security, HIV/AIDS, Education, Governance, and Advocacy. With World Vision Australia, Peter led technical specialist teams in economic development, WASH, health, food security, gender and child protection, as well as the research and evaluation unit. Recently, Peter has been focused on the employment and community services sector in Australia, in the context of COVID 19 impact. His journey has also included work as an NGO strategy consultant, leading a technology start-up developing an innovative solution to better safeguarding compliance, and a social enterprise enabling refugees and asylum seekers to pursue their professional career journeys on arrival in Australia. Peter has been a Board member for Habitat for Humanity Australia, and a lecturer on International Development Masters programs. Key Points The community-based care model focuses on holistic support rather than institutional care, ensuring that survivors are supported long-term. This model includes long-term case management and addresses survivors’ varied needs such as counseling, legal support, education, and livelihood development. The concept of “the whole journey” involves comprehensive support for survivors that extends beyond immediate assistance. It emphasizes the commitment to work with individuals for as long as it takes to help them rebuild their lives and reintegrate into their communities. Training for foster families and community partners is crucial. All stakeholders, including employers, law enforcement, and service providers, receive training in trauma-informed care to ensure they understand and can adequately support survivors, reducing the risk of re-traumatization. The community-based care model challenges traditional institutional care and seeks to engage and strengthen the broader systems in which survivors exist, including legal and law enforcement systems. This shift promotes the idea of creating a supportive community environment for survivors over a purely reactive institutional approach. Hagar International aims to expand their approach beyond the four countries they operate in, to collaborate with local NGOs and share their successes in building community-based models for care, emphasizing the importance of capacity building and system strengthening in different contexts around the world. Resources Hagar International World Vision International Concern Worldwide Engineers Without Borders 45- War, Conflict, and Human Trafficking, with Esther and Camille Ntoto Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #332: A Community-Based Care Model, with Peter Baynard-Smith. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Peter Baynard-Smith. He has over 20 years of international development experience, working across Africa, Asia, the UK, Ireland, and Australia with organizations like World Vision, Concern Worldwide, and Engineers Without Borders. There’s a lot to learn about Peter, but I want to start with asking about your experience with Engineers Without Borders Peter, because usually on this podcast, we’re not talking to engineers. I’m so excited to have you join us on the show today. Peter Baynard-Smith 1:27 Thank you, Sandie, it’s wonderful to be with you. Yes, my background as an engineer actually started out at university, and my passion for International Development and Engineering combined together because I believe that people in all sectors and all professions need to understand the challenges of sustainable development and international development issues. Engineers Without Borders is an organization that educates and empowers engineers and engineering students to engage with social development, with sustainable development goals, and I was the CEO at Engineers Without Borders Australia for a couple of years. Engineers Without Borders Australia is part of a global network of EWBs around the world, including in the USA. So yes, it’s unusual perhaps for an engineer to be working in the anti-trafficking sector, but I think that the important thing is that all of the work that every sector and industry is involved in has an impact. If our working on the ground in development agencies of all sorts, whether we’re doing engineering work, technical development, livelihoods, education, it all touches on the significant challenge and tragedy of human trafficking and modern slavery. I’ve been able to bring some of that experience across into Hagar and focus it on the anti-trafficking space. Sandra Morgan 2:55 I love that my listeners are used to hearing me talk about multi sector collaboration. I often tell the story from my time living in Greece, about the big jars. Pithari, they were called, that the Minoan people, more than 3,000 years ago, carrying down into the king’s pantry a jug that holds 500 liters. To do that, they baked in handles from the top to the bottom, as an engineer, I think you would appreciate this story. Peter Baynard-Smith 3:31 Yep! Sandra Morgan 3:32 …All the way around, so then multiple people could grab the handle they could reach. I think you are an amazing exemplar of finding your handle to join us in the movement against human trafficking. I’m eally delighted to have you here today. Peter Baynard-Smith 3:53 That’s a beautiful picture. I’ll take that one away. Sandra Morgan 3:56 Yeah, you’re gonna borrow that, huh? Okay, good. Well, let’s start off with trying to understand we have listeners in 167 countries. So the principles are what are most transferable for learning how to create a community-based care model. So let’s start with, what do you think are the key elements of a community based care model? Peter Baynard-Smith 4:26 Well, I might start by just explaining that Hagar began 30 years ago in Cambodia at the community level. So our roots as an organization, and therefore the approaches we take, is thoroughly embedded in grassroots community. The key elements that we package together in a concept that we call ‘the whole journey,’ is all the holistic elements that are needed to help a survivor of trafficking, or slavery, or abuse, to restore their lives, to overcome their trauma, and to rebuild their lives and their livelihoods and their future. Those elements include being well managed, case management, and one thing that’s very important at the community level is that case management takes time. It’s not something that somebody can have packaged up for a year, and then that’s it. We work with our survivors, clients, what we say is we work with them, do whatever it takes, for as long as it takes. We put no limit on how long we work with a survivor. I think that’s one of the most important elements, is actually not being rushed, not being time bound, not being project bound, but actually committed to working with clients for as long as it takes. The elements we include are counseling, legal support, making sure that they are in a safe shelter environment, safe environment of accommodation, whether that is a shelter or not, usually not actually normally in the community, legal support, also education, skill building, making sure that a survivor is able to get back their livelihood or develop a livelihood despite what they’ve been through and the trauma that they’ve experienced. For Hagar, the community-based model is about a wraparound of all of the provision of all of these areas of need outside of establishing any sort of institution. The important thing is that those in the community that can, whether they are service providers or they are actual community members or extended family, can provide all of those elements. So that’s for us, the most important thing, is being with a survivor for the long term and bringing all of the different elements in a holistic package to provide that support for as long as it takes. Sandra Morgan 7:02 I love the analogy of the journey, because we don’t know if we’ve reached our destination just based on how long we’ve been walking, or if our- I don’t know even how to express this, but I get this sense that in your community-based care model, when we compare that, let’s do that. Let’s try compare and contrast what a community-based care model offers for that more longitudinal journey approach, as opposed to a victim service provider model that’s based on an aftercare facility or some kind of institutional program. Peter Baynard-Smith 7:53 Yeah, I’ll use the example of in Cambodia, the number of women that have been forcibly returned from having been trafficked in China, forcibly returned, particularly during and immediately after the COVID pandemic, and returning back to Cambodia and having nowhere to go, and having been also ostracized and not permitted to return even to their families and their communities. In many, in some traditional models, those young women would be regarded as having to be in some form of institutional care, because where else are they going to go? What Hagar’s model has done is identify a home in the community where, at the initial stage, those young women can return to. We call them Homes of Love, and they can return and literally, they will be there a couple of weeks. They’ll be there simply to be able to get started making sure they’ve got a case manager, they’ve got somebody to support them, that their immediate health and well being needs are being attended to, that the counseling and the support can begin, just that beginning of the journey with them. But all along, it is about reintegrating them into their community and starting that process of overcoming the barriers that they feel, that even their families and their communities feel. Often, there’s great discrimination on women that have been ostensibly married off into, in this case, in China, and have have returned having been abused and having in many cases, severe trauma and severe psychological impact. The ‘Home of Love,’ is in the community. So even though it’s a home, it’s not an institution. It is a house mother in her own home in the community, bringing nd allowing those girls to stay with her for a number of weeks, get themselves back on their feet, and then all of the services and the support from Hagar kicks in over that time, so that then the ongoing case management, the ongoing counseling, any legal work that’s required, and any skill building and training, and all of those aspects can kick off, including reintegrating into the community. It’s bringing a natural family and community environment around the individual, rather than placing them in an institutional environment where they don’t have any connections and they don’t have a sense of a future beyond that. And that’s the big risk, and has obviously been the big change over the last 10 to 12 years, has been a recognition that that kind of institutional model does not lead to long term, wholesome, long term outcomes. Sandra Morgan 11:02 It sort of contributes to some insecurity. And I don’t know how many subcommittees I’ve been on where our topic is “placement,” and “placement,” is is a little dehumanizing. “We’ve got to find a bed,” those kinds of things, but you’re talking about a home environment, and then you’re talking about community integration. I don’t quite understand how to look at that integration piece, because they’re not going to stay in that home. But where are they going now? Peter Baynard-Smith 11:41 There is a few layers, a few levels of that. Obviously, the preferred outcome is that that survivor can return to their own family, their own extended family, in their own home village. When that’s not possible, we look at a wider circle of kinship care. It might be extended family in a neighboring community, might be relatives or cousins in a different town or a different province, so that sort of next circle out of kinship. Beyond that, we train up, we identify and train up long term foster homes. It’s really replicating almost the kind of model that a lot of developed nations would have around their approach to fostering and out of home care. We identify and train up families in provinces all around Cambodia, so that wherever the survivors have actually originated from, after spending time with Hagar in the home of love, they are then able to, if they cannot return to their family or there is no wider kinship care available to them, there is the foster care and home environment. Now this is young people and adults. Again, it can be children, but many of these young women, by the time they return, they are approaching adulthood, or they are adults. That foster model also is around evolving fostering from purely fostering of children, to actually that fostering and caring for vulnerable adults through that model as well. Sandra Morgan 13:23 Love that. So this approach then moves the care that is going to stay with this survivor into a wider safety net, if you will. My next question then, is, when that happens, how dothe community partners….is it very prescribed? How do they become woven into this person’s life? Peter Baynard-Smith 14:03 It’s a very community by community model, so identifying foster families and foster homes and training them up and supporting them, alongside supporting the client themselves through the reintegration process and all the ongoing support, because alongside this, their skill building, their education, their vocational training, their legal work, if there’s a court case going on regarding the broker or the perpetrator of the trafficking crime, all of these sort of things can be going on alongside actually reintegrating and trying to get her life back on track. There’s a multitude of supports alongside, but the foster home is simply the environment where they can live and be safe. The other aspect of the community around all this is related to prevention, because many of the girls that have ended up in these situations have come from situations of vulnerability, whether that’s related to poverty, whether it’s related to domestic violence in their own families or communities, whether it’s related to being susceptible to unsafe employment, the attraction of migration for employment that turn out to be very unsafe migration practices. Built into this model is a whole set of tools available to work with communities, right at the level of the household. One of the things I love in Cambodia, and we have a similar initiative in Vietnam is called The Good Wives and Good Husbands Group. It’s absolutely fantastic because it’s working with, in the case of the Good Husbands Group, actually working with men who mostly, even they themselves have self identified, as enacting domestic violence or not understanding the risks of trafficking, not understanding children’s rights, not understanding rights for women and girls. So actually helping to educate men and husbands around creating a safe home environment that, actually over the years, means that a young woman growing up in that home environment is far less susceptible to being attracted out into a potential migration that turns out to be a very unsafe and indeed a trafficking situation, or seeking unhealthy relationships and this sort of thing. It’s really about building understanding of respectful relationships, the vital role of a healthy and caring home, that that all actually contributes to preventing these situations arising in the first place. Sandra Morgan 16:56 Building this community-based care model, then you’re actually building the community to be a safer place too. Your description of this reminds me of an interview, and I’ll put a link in the show notes, when we interviewed Esther and Camille Ntoto from Congo. Camille had started a men’s group that sounds just like what you’re doing, and it created a safer community for abused women to return to a normal life. So that’s very exciting to see different versions of the same strategy, I love that, that’s very exciting. When I think about this idea of a foster home, because you could tell I was thinking, “Oh, so they’re only going to take care of kids,” because we think of fostering that way. But this idea that you’re providing that safe space for someone that’s an adult, this is a little bit of a new way of looking at things. How do you train the families? You mentioned training and preparation. Peter Baynard-Smith 18:14 A number of years ago, around eight years ago, Hagar in Cambodia really led the way in creating a rigorous and systematic set of guidelines around foster care, fostering in the community in Cambodia. So it wasn’t something as you know, the institutional environments in Cambodia had been very established and had been running for a long time, and the last 10 years or so, there’s been a very significant shift away from that, and Hagar has been at the front leading edge of that when it comes to this particular alternative. The community-based Foster Care is a much healthier and a much better set of outcomes, and a much better way of doing this. The guidelines that Hagar has developed, the work that Hagar does with the government, at ministry level and also provincial and district levels of those ministries, ties it all together. You can work on national guidelines, but then you also need to support and train, and build the capacity at a commune, and a district, and a provincial level to ensure that those guidelines are followed. That’s where the training comes in. The training isn’t just with the foster homefamilies, it’s also with the service providers and the duty bearers around them, because it’s a system. We’re very keen on making sure the work that we do is not setting up a parallel system. We want to strengthen the system and improve the system, and that includes and that requires government and duty bearers to be on board, to enforce it, to enact the same principles and standards in care. We want others to pick up the model, and that’s very important for Hagar. We’re not just about doing it ourselves, we’re also about building the capacity of local NGOs, local organizations, not only in the countries we’re working but also in some other countries as well, so that the standards and the principles, and the good approaches, can be picked up and run and have an impact in other places as well. Sandra Morgan 20:34 If I’m imagining what this is going to look like, because you talked about economic tools and training empowerment, this training isn’t just for the foster families, but say I’m going to employ your survivors in an office building, then the people training the women to be computer data entry people, they have to go through your training? They can’t just start training them for the computer? Peter Baynard-Smith 21:09 You’ve got it. You’ve got it. The one aspect of training that we do with all stakeholders that we work with, and that our clients engage with is trauma informed care approaches. If I take the example of if we’re brokering an opportunity for a survivor to have a job in, let’s just take that example in a data center, for example, it is vital that that employer understands how to work with and have their their eyes and ears open to the impact of trauma in that new employee’s life. If they’re providing their employment services in a way that appreciates the experience that someone may have been through, understands the impact of trauma, they are going to have a much more successful employee, they’re going to have a much more successful employer/employee relationship, and then the survivor is going to have a much more sustainable, successful, long term employment, placement, and opportunity. The training that we provide around trauma informed care is not purely on the social work side, in terms of the care per se, it’s also on employers and indeed, judicial services, immigration departments, immigration officials, police officials, all of those different services that a survivor comes in contact with has to be trained around trauma and understanding how you manage, and work with, and support, and not re-traumatize an individual through the services that you’re providing. Sandra Morgan 22:58 You’ve got all these partners, collaborators, everybody working alongside. I like that because we’re doing it together. To me, that means that your language around partnership is really related to your comment at the beginning about systems. You’re talking about the system, not parallel systems, and at the time I thought, “Huh, I want to know more about that.” And now it makes more sense, but can you explain that just a little bit more? I think it’s unique to an engineer’s mind. Peter Baynard-Smith 23:38 I think there’s three pillars, if you like, that we think of when we think of our work. I’ve talked about survivor care, I’ve talked a bit about prevention. The third pillar is this strength in systems. There are multiple systems, as you say, an engineer’s mind sort of thinks of systems in systems way, that one of the systems that we really want to focus on, and do focus on significantly and increasingly, is the law enforcement and judicial and prosecution system. Because survivors of trafficking are right from the get go, whether it’s in terms of them being identified as a victim, right through to the kind of impact statements that they’re required to give, right through all the evidence gathering process, right through all of the trial, and the legal, and the compensation processes that take place, that whole journey, if you like, that “system,” a victim or a survivor is at the heart of that system, and is highly vulnerable. They are highly vulnerable before they’re even identified. Obviously, they’re in a position of vulnerability in the first place, but they’re also highly vulnerable through that process. We work really closely, particularly in Thailand, our work in Thailand very strongly focused on law enforcement capacity building, victim support through the legal and prosecution process, and strengthening the level to which trauma is understood and factored in to the way that police and investigators, and indeed the legal profession approach and handle survivors of trafficking. That whole system, we’ve got a number of touch points with training, capacity building, building of evidence, and direct support to the survivor through the process and even at the other end. One of the things that I found quite shocking, is the very low level of compensation claims. Compensation may be ordered by the court, but such low levels of compensation end up in the hands of survivors, and obviously, once a court orders compensation, there’s a whole other set of processes involved in actually securing that compensation. Again, supporting a client properly through aftercare, through packages of support, again for the long term, because they can’t rely on a court order to redress and compensate them adequately for what they’ve been through, so you have to bring the ongoing counseling and support, and help with finding work and education in at that end of what is otherwise a judicial and legal process and system, but it’s a system that’s affecting humans, and the individual at the heart of that. Hagar is focused on those individuals and on those survivors, and making sure that all the aspects of the support they need are provided, even while we try and strengthen the systems for the longer term. Sandra Morgan 26:55 I keep hearing this ongoing language, and that really supports the premise of this is a journey, and we’re doing this with the survivor in a community. As the community begins to function in a way that is very organically supportive, what do you see as a future trend that we can expect from the system changes happening because of a community-based model? Peter Baynard-Smith 27:34 I think one of the trends is an increased understanding and recognition of the impact of trauma, and more and more stakeholders being trained and having their own system environments, their own institutional environments, let’s say, in the police. In countries where the treatment of trafficking survivors has not always been front and center, even actually taking up trafficking cases and prosecuting them has often been put to the side and been regarded as less important than prosecuting other types of criminal activity. I think an increasing recognition of the terrible impact of trafficking and slavery, the fact that we can identify it, we can support people, and we can restitute and transform, and heal those broken lives. I think that that recognition is growing, so I think that’s one trend. The other is that Hagar works with Hagar International Offices in four countries, Cambodia, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and we are with a partner of ours in Thailand. We have that direct working in those four countries, but we also are seeing a trend of being able to bring our learnings, our expertise, and our strengths to other organizations in other countries that are not necessarily going to be a Hagar program country, but a partner organization that can do all the same great work. An example of that is in the Solomon Islands, also in Myanmar, and I think for Hagar, the trend into the future is expanding the impact from all of the 30 years of experience that we have, by building the skills and bringing the expertise to other organizations that are local. All local organizations, local NGOs, and in the case of the work in the Solomon Islands, has actually, over the last 12 months, brought to the law enforcement process the very first cases of human trafficking in the Solomon Islands. They’re not the first cases that existed, but they’re the first cases that are being brought to the courts, and survivors are being supported, and evidence is being gathered. It’s a big change for a country like the Solomon Islands to actually have an organization, a Solomon Island organization, with the kind of skills, with the backing and support of an international NGO like Hagar, to bring that level of capacity to a system that did not have it before at all. So that’s a very big step, and we’d like to see more of that, we’d like to see Hagar’s work, being able to support and inject that skill set and expertise into local NGOs in a number of other countries around the region and indeed, globally. Sandra Morgan 30:54 Well, I want to help you with that. Can you give our listeners some direction on how to get connected with you to get support on those initiatives? Website, contact. Peter Baynard-Smith 31:08 Yep! Follow us on our socials, on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. Go to our website, hagarinternational.org. We’re always open to collaborating with more local and indeed, international organizations working with vulnerable and traumatized populations. The evidence is that modern day slavery and trafficking is occurring everywhere, sadly, and so development and international aid organizations working in many, many countries could, I think, really benefit from having a focus on understanding the trafficking risk, being aware of the trafficking context, and also the impact and the trauma that survivors have been through, and actually be able to work with them within the communities that those organizations are working in. We can bring those skills and training, and we would love to hear from any organizations interested in partnering with us in whichever part of the world they are. Sandra Morgan 32:11 I know when we talk about community based care, we’re thinking of the survivor, but I think part of the outcomes of this strategy is that communities begin to care. Your example of the Solomon Islands, we know trafficking has been happening, but now there is a system response. Peter, I am so grateful that you joined us today. Thank you. Peter Baynard-Smith 32:40 Thank you, Sandie, it’s been wonderful to meet you, and thank you to all your listeners and all your supporters of your podcast. It’s terrific, thanks so much. Sandra Morgan 32:50 Thank you. Listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step. Go over to endinghuman trafficking.org. You’ll find the resources that Peter mentioned, and the link to past podcast. If you haven’t visited our site before, this is a great time to become a subscriber, and then you’ll get a newsletter every two weeks with the show notes of that particular episode. Follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram, and of course, I’m going to see you again in two weeks.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Daniel Varon as the two discuss the important of retribution and restitution for victims of trafficking and abuse. Daniel Varon Daniel Varon joined the Zalkin Law firm in 2020 bringing his experience as an attorney in the Office of the District Attorney in Orange County. He is an experienced trial attorney, having tried approximately 60 jury trials during his work as Deputy District Attorney. The California District Attorney Investigators Association recognized him as Prosecutor of the Year in 2017. While at the Orange County DA’s office, Daniel worked in the Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit (HEAT). He maintained a full caseload and tried the first human trafficking of a minor case, following the passage of Prop 35. As a Senior Deputy in the DA’s office, he handled pre-trial writs in the California Court of Appeals, drafted and argued appeals in the California Court of Appeal and Superior Court appellate department, and drafted requests for review in the California Supreme Court. During his time with the Orange County DA, he was also deeply involved in developing and presenting comprehensive human trafficking training programs for law enforcement and prosecutors in 12 counties across California. He served as a subject matter expert for California’s Commission on Peace Officer Standards and training for development of its human trafficking training video and the Post Institute of Criminal Investigations, advancing human trafficking investigations. Before his work at the Orange County District Attorney’s office, he worked for the law firm of Gilbert, Kelly, Crowley and Jennett in Los Angeles. Key Points The vertical prosecution model is essential in ensuring effective outcomes for victims, as it dedicates prosecutors to human trafficking cases, encouraging collaboration with police and law enforcement. The success of the HEAT unit relied on building trust not only among law enforcement but also with juvenile defenders, victim service providers, and the courts, creating a comprehensive support system for trafficking victims. Daniel now represents victims of childhood sexual abuse and human trafficking, and he stresses the significance of focusing on restitution for victims, highlighting the long-term impacts of sexual abuse. The criminal and civil justice systems have key distinctions, particularly regarding the representation of victims, with criminal prosecutors acting on behalf of the state. In contrast, civil attorneys advocate directly for the victims. It is important to balance empathetic support for victims while providing them with the necessary structure for independence and self-empowerment. Resources Zalkin Law Firm Orange County District Attorney’s Office California District Attorney Investigators Association ‘Prosecutor of the Year’ Award Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit (HEAT) California Courts of Appeals California Supreme Court California’s Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training Southwestern Law School Interview with Daniel Aaron 112: Juvenile Justice Inspiring Hope: An Interview with Hon. Maria Hernandez Institute on Violence, Abuse and Trauma (IVAT) Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #331: Retribution and Restitution, with Daniel Varon. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Daniel Varon, and he joined the Zalkin Law firm in 2020 but I knew him a long time before that. His experience as an attorney in the office of the district attorney in Orange County was a huge part of the battle against human trafficking in my backyard. He is an experienced trial attorney, having tried approximately 60 jury trials during his work as Deputy District Attorney. He was recognized as Prosecutor of the Year by the California District Attorney Investigators Association in 2017. That’s an amazing honor, and I congratulate you. While at the Orange County DA’s office, Daniel worked in the Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit. Colloquially, we called it the “HEAT Unit,” because they put heat on those traffickers. He maintained a full case load and tried the first human trafficking of a minor case, following passage of Prop 35. As a Senior Deputy in the DA’s office, he also handled pre-trial writs in the California Court of Appeals, drafted and argued appeals in the California Court of Appeal and Superior Court appellate department, and drafted requests for review in the California Supreme Court. Now to my listeners, you know I don’t usually do long bios, but I think this could be like a timeline for those aspiring attorneys that have talked to me, who want to be in the battle as an advocate. So I’m going to do just a little more than usual. During his time with the Orange County DA, he was also deeply involved in developing and presenting comprehensive human trafficking training programs for law enforcement and prosecutors in 12 counties across California. He served as a subject matter expert for California’s Commission on Peace Officer Standards and training for development of its human trafficking training video and for the Post Institute of Criminal Investigations, advancing human trafficking investigations. This is really important because we need those who have gone and been pioneers to help all of us reach the same level. Prior to his work at the Orange County District Attorney, he worked for the law firm of Gilbert, Kelly, Crowley and Jennett in Los Angeles. He has done so many outstanding things, and I think learning more about him outside of when he was serving here in Orange County, my favorite new thing to learn is that when he was at Southwestern University School of Law, he received the Best Advocate Award. I think we could all agree that he still qualifies in that area. Danny, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, and I apologize for that long bio. Daniel Varon 4:33 Well, thank you, Sandie. It’s great to be here, it’s great to see you. I think I did your podcast, I think seven years ago, while we were in the midst of all of this. Maybe longer, actually. It was great to see you in Orange County a few months ago, and it’s great to do your podcast. Thank you for having me. Sandra Morgan 4:50 I plan to put the link to that podcast in the show notes, so people, if you want more of the content we’re going to talk about here, you can go back and listen to our previous conversation. Let’s get a little history on what happened here in Orange County and what it was like for you to be on the first HEAT team. Daniel Varon 5:15 Well, it was amazing. And I have to say, I was thinking over those days, back in 2011/2012 when we were envisioning what the HEAT unit would look like. It’s hard not to feel like I was the Forrest Gump of human trafficking. Honestly, and you remember back in those early days, we were law enforcement led. We had a grant from the federal government, from the FBI. We had a wonderful federal agent, Steve Wrathall, who kind of spearheaded that effort. They created a task force at Anaheim Police Department, I think in 2010, and part of what they were obligated to do as part of receiving that grant was to learn and then train on human trafficking. In 2011 I happen to be assigned to a felony prosecution unit that dealt with the Northern District of Orange County, and that included Anaheim. I happened to get a few piping cases on my caseload, and we happened to get one close to trial, and that’s how I met those police officers. Greg Freeze, Shane Carringer, Paul Delgado, and others, I don’t want to leave anybody out, I probably did. I really followed their lead. I mean, these were guys that were willing to learn and do new things. They were vice officers at the time, and they took a new approach, and I learned the approach from them. It’s embarrassing to hear my bio read like that. Thank you for the kind words and the kind introduction, but I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that, like I said, I was the Forrest Gump of human trafficking that happened to be in the right place at the right time, and if I was smart on anything, it was I was smart enough to follow the lead of really good police officers. Sandra Morgan 6:53 Thank you. That’s great. I worked with police officers before we had a vertical prosecutor, and I left the Office of Admin for the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force just as you were coming on. The difference in the outcomes for our victims were astronomical with the vertical prosecutor being available. Can you explain what that means? Daniel Varon 7:32 Sure, Orange County, I think, is different from a lot of DA’soffices, in that it really does have a vertical prosecution model for the serious felonies. What that means, as opposed to a non vertical prosecution model is, the best way I could illustrate it is the difference between what I would say are garden variety felonies, simple assaults, burglaries, robberies, non gang crimes, non sex crimes, non homicides, those garden variety felonies are handled by different units at different times. So somebody gets arrested, police officers prepare reports, they submit it to a preliminary hearing unit, and they’re the unit that’s just designed to go to court to show the judge that there’s probable cause to hold the defendant to answer on those charges, and then once that happens, it gets submitted to a general felony unit, which is the unit that I was speaking about earlier, that I was assigned to the north team for. Then it’s prosecuted to trial by a trial deputy, and then if there’s a conviction and an appeal, the appeal gets handled by the Attorney General’s Office. Vertical prosecution means, instead of having these two separate units within the DA’s office that handle the first and the second phase of the case, the vertical prosecution teams tend to be assigned to specific crimes. Because they’re assigned to specific crimes, they get very involved with the police officers who investigate those crimes. We get very involved in understanding how the crimes work, how they’re investigated, how they’re prosecuted, and we get involved from the very earliest stage. The moment that a crime occurs, the police officers know who the assigned prosecutor is going to be, they can have conversations to make sure that the evidence is collected in the right way, that all of the elements to the crime are accounted for, it’s the DA who reviews those search warrants, reviews all the evidence as it comes in, and is able to meet the victim at the earliest possible stage. And then it also creates consistency for the victim of crime, because the victim has one prosecutor that she knows is handling her case and as it works through the process. It’s, in my view for serious crimes and for complicated crimes, it’s a much more effective and meaningful way to present a case through the process. It’s more effective for the victims. It’s more effective for law enforcement, and, quite frankly, I think it’s more effective for the courts. If you think about homicide, homicide is very complicated, and you want an attorney on the case who really understands the intricacies of the law of homicide. Human trafficking is no different. Human trafficking is very complicated in many respects. It’s complicated because of the social and the psychological components of it, you really have to understand what makes that trafficking relationship tick. You really have to understand the victimization. We used to call it, in the trainings, we used to refer to it as victimology. How does a trafficker recruit their victims? What are they looking for? What characteristics? How do they manipulate them? How do they bring them in? How do they keep them trafficked? You need somebody that has really immersed themselves in that culture, so to speak. And then you also need somebody who understands how to take that information and apply it to the laws. In our case with trafficking, we also were involved in drafting laws. If we thought things needed to change, we were not quiet about drafting proposals to send them to the legislature as well, and I think over time, that vertical prosecution model gave us a lot more credibility with the courts. As we got more and more cases through the court system, the judges knew that we were the trafficking attorneys, that we understood the law. It felt like, at times, since I’m not in the the DA’s office anymore and I don’t practice criminal law in Orange County, I could say it, but there were many times that we felt that we were educating the bench, and that was a really, really important facet of what we felt our role was and what we were doing. Sandra Morgan 11:31 That speaks to one of the elements we talk a lot about on this podcast, is collaboration and federal grants, for the last decade or so, have focused on an enhanced collaborative model. Without building trust, it is not possible to really collaborate, and that’s what I observed with the HEAT unit. I worked in the juvenile courts, and could see the trust between all of the partners supporting one youth who was now involved in this case. So kudos for the emphasis on including the folks on the bench, the law enforcement, the victim service people. I always felt, as a part of the task force, that I was personally part of the victories that we then had with the convictions. Daniel Varon 12:34 Actually, if I can just add one crucial component there, which is that the way that the task force was structured at the beginning, and that I think it’s still supposed to be structured, but I haven’t been there for four and a half years, is it wasn’t just police, and that’s to your point, right? It wasn’t just police and law enforcement. The trust was absolutely crucial. We had to earn the trust of the juvenile defenders, the attorneys who were representing minors who were going through the juvenile court process, we had to earn their trust that if there was a minor that we recommended for detention in a juvenile facility for a short period of time, we had to earn their trust so that they understood that we were doing it to protect the minor from being trafficked, from being abused, from being victimized further. There were some wonderful juvenile defenders who understood that, and we were able to work with them to figure out what’s really in the best interest of the minor. That’s the crutch of California’s juvenile delinquency program. Really, the obligation is for everybody to look at it from the perspective of what’s best for the minor, and we did that, and I’m really, really proud of the work that we were able to do through the juvenile court system. As you know, we had an amazing judge during my time there, Judge Maria Hernandez. She was somebody who was just so dedicated to trying to figure out how to use the courts in the proper way to try to help the minors. She was instrumental in that process. The public defenders who were assigned there that we worked with, some of them were really, really terrific as well. The trust that you’re referring to, it has to go much further beyond just law enforcement and prosecutor, it has to go system wide. Sandra Morgan 14:16 Absolutely. Thank you for that, and thanks for the shout out for Judge Hernandez. We’ll put her interviews in the show notes too, because she has some great comments to add to this. But now you’re not here in Orange County, and you’ve moved from criminal law to civil. What is that about? Daniel Varon 14:38 You know, it was just the right time for me. I had a very long commute, and that wasn’t the only thing, certainly. But the work that we were doing in human trafficking is very taxing. We really, like I’ve alluded to, we really made it our business to be involved. It was never a nine to five job for us, in the unit. Brad, Shane, Laban, who you know obviously, and the others, Julia and the others that we worked with, Brian who is now a judge, we worked a lot. I think when we each came in, the entire emphasis of the HEAT unit and what we were doing was the victim centered approach, that we were taking the perspective of the victim and really trying to do what was in the best interest of the victim, and to achieve justice. Our jobs as prosecutors, fundamentally, were to achieve justice, and we were dealing with crimes that, by their nature, are recidivist. They’re not crimes that, they’re not one-offs. Somebody commits an assault in a bar, a lot of times that could be a one-off offense. Somebody steals a car, you hope that’s a one-off offense. The very nature of human trafficking is that it’s a crime that continues, it’s of a continuing nature. They recruit and victimize somebody so that they can sell them over and over and over and over. And every time they do it, it’s the money maker for the perpetrator. And so we know that when people get out of prison in this arena, they reoffend. I don’t know what the percentages are, but I venture to say it’s in the high 90s. We saw recidivist offenders over and over again. From our perspective, achieving justice meant that if you had an offender, it was our obligation, within our ethical bounds and ethical constraints, to use admissible evidence to ensure that they were convicted and that they were sentenced appropriately. We were focused on it, and we knew that learning and understanding and growing was key to that, so we went out with our law enforcement partners on ride alongs a lot. I spent many, 12:00 till 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning on Harbor Boulevard in Santa Ana to learn. I’ve been out to Anaheim’s tracks on Harbor and Beach Boulevard a lot. There were times when juveniles werelocated, where I’d go in at five o’clock in the morning so that I could interview her with the police officer. Those are things that we did, and so it’s very taxing. It’s taxing our families, it’s taxing physically and emotionally, obviously, the subject matter is very difficult. After my time in the HEAT Unit, around 2019, I was moved into the writs and appeals unit, which was a welcome change of pace for me. At that time, I kind of started to reassess where I was at. I did sort of a mental check in, because I don’t share this very much, but in my mind, as a prosecutor, every three or four years, I’d sort of reassess where I was at. I did that because I felt like it was my obligation to either recommit, mentally and emotionally to what I was doing, or find something else that I would commit to. Because if you’re just going along like, “Oh, it’s going to be a 30 year career,” you get stale. You don’t bring the same passion to your work, and it’s not fair to the victims that we try to achieve justice for. It’s not fair to our colleagues. It’s not fair to the office. It was 2019, I was kind of going through that mental check in, sort of, to see where we were. I knew Irwin’s Zalkin and I’d actually given a presentation. He asked me to give a presentation at IVAT down in San Diego, which is – you’re nodding. I think you know what IVAT may be, right? Sandra Morgan 18:20 But for our listeners. Daniel Varon 18:22 Well, I’m going to get the acronym wrong, but it’s an institute that focuses on violence against women, essentially sexual abuse and domestic violence. I gave a human trafficking presentation there, and we had remained in contact. By early 2020, we were in touch, and I ended up here. This is really, it’s a perfect progression for me. What we do in our firm, the vast majority of the work we do is representing victims of childhood sex abuse. Some of that overlaps, obviously, with human trafficking. What we had seen, we never actually got deep into the statistics, but it was very obvious to us that many of our human trafficking victims have been sexually abused when they were minors. Whether they were adult or child victims, when we got them in human trafficking, we learned that a lot of them were abused early. You’ve heard me say this before, Sandie, but we wanted to learn From traffickers and traffickers themselves talk about targeting young women who have been sexually abused when they were minors, it’s one of the risk factors to getting trafficked. The damage that’s done to a child who’s sexually abused is incalculable. It’s a lifelong, life lasting impact, and obviously it impacts everybody differently. For some people it made them more vulnerable to sexual abuse beyond the initial abuse. For others, it made them more vulnerable to human trafficking. For others, it makes them more vulnerable to alcohol abuse or drug abuse, difficulty with relationships. I mean, the manifestations of harm that are done when a child is sexually abused you really just can’t put to words the lifelong impact. For me, this is like the perfect place to be, it’s really where my passion is, is helping people who have been victimized in that way. The natural progression for me was, when I came here, is to look at, well, what about the civil component to human trafficking? And it’s something that we’ve spent a lot of time talking about and looking at, and researching. That’s an area that we’re certainly open to as well, it’s trying to find restitution for people who are victimized in that way as well. Sandra Morgan 20:31 In some of my focus groups with victims of human trafficking, one of the consistent themes that comes up is what justice looks like. It began to concern me that their response was more about restitution so they could build a new life, and they really didn’t care if the sentence was five years or 25 years. If they were out of the system and independent, self reliant, it was a new life. I began watching restitution. I watched some restitution cases in the civil courts in Los Angeles, and I talked to those victims. Can you compare criminal justice with civil justice? Daniel Varon 21:32 There’s a lot of misconceptions, I think people don’t fully appreciate what the role is of a prosecutor. I alluded to it earlier, that as much as we felt that we were trying to achieve justice for the victims, the main distinction between civil and criminal law, I think, if you wanted to just pick one, the main one is that as a prosecutor you don’t represent the victim. In civil law, if you’re a plaintiff’s attorney and you represent somebody who’s been trafficked or been sexually abused, you represent that person. So everything you do is geared towards achieving some result for that person. On the criminal side, you represent the people of the state of California. That might sound a little cheesy. When you look at a criminal complaint, it says the people of the state of California vs., and then it names the defendant. When we would stand up in court as prosecutors, we would say, “Daniel Varon for the people.” Some people might say, “Well, that sounds a little bit strange or a little bit cheesy, or hokey, or whatever,” but it’s not. Every individual in California has an interest in the Fair Administration of Justice, and part of that means that when somebody commits a crime against society by victimizing another member of society, it’s up to a prosecutor to stand up on their behalf, to ensure that justice is done for what happened. We know that there are many, many crimes out there, human trafficking oftentimes is one of them, where the victim, like you said, has no interest in their perpetrator going to jail there. How many domestic violence cases do we know about where the victim goes sideways and she doesn’t want her partner or spouse in jail? It happens over and over again, but the role of a prosecutor is, we can take into account what a victim tells us, but at the end of the day, it’s not a victim’s decision whether a case is brought or not brought. On the flip side to that is, a victim can yell and scream that she wants somebody to be prosecuted, but again, we have ethical obligations to represent the people, and if we don’t have admissible evidence of the crime, we don’t get to bring case, right. One of the hardest things that you ever do as a prosecutor is, a crime that you know was committed against a victim who you know was victimized, but you know that you don’t have admissible evidence to prove it to 12 people beyond a reasonable doubt. That was our burden, and so you have to decide not to file the case. It’s an agonizing decision at times, but it’s one of the most important decisions that you make as a prosecutor, is the decision whether to file or not to file. On the civil side, obviously we have ethical burdens on when we bring a case or file a case on behalf of a client, but we represent the client, and we try to achieve an outcome for the client. You make recommendations to the clients, but there are certain things that only a client can decide. It’s not the same on the criminal side. Sandra Morgan 24:31 In your work, on the civil side now, how is that impacting justice for victims? Daniel Varon 24:40 Well, our justice system is, I would argue we have the best in the world, in my opinion, but it’s not perfect. We can strive for perfection, and I think the fact that, as a society, I think we’re always moving the ball forward, but we’re not there yet. One of the imperfections, I think, is that there really is no way that I have found, to achieve full restitution for victims on the criminal side. That doesn’t mean that in all cases you’ll never get restitution, but in the vast majority of cases that I’ve seen, it’s really difficult to get full financial restitution for victims. We’re not talking about somebody stole your car and you lost $5,000, and then you got $5,000 back and got a new car. Okay that, fine, you get restitution. But when you talk about sexual abuse of a child, or you talk about human trafficking, which involves obviously sexual abuse of a child or a young woman, and I know I’ve been very gendered, by the way, but in my time at the DA’s office, I hadn’t prosecuted any cases where they were male victims. I don’t mean, at all, to suggest that there are not male victims of human trafficking, we know there are, but in my experience that I had dealt with, it was always female victims, and so that’s why I keep using ‘she,’ so please don’t take anything by that. But, you talk about the lifelong needs of somebody who’s been trafficked or sexually abused as a child, the cost is astronomical. The impact to that person is potentially lifelong counseling. Which estimates show that somebody who’s sexually abused as a child could cost anywhere from 250 to $400,000 over the course of their lifetime, just in therapy costs. What about their ability to go to school, housing, change in their employment outlook? What about all of the things that we really don’t talk about a lot, like sexual dysfunction? I’ve dealt with a lot of cases with male victims of child sex abuse, and there are ramifications for them that a lot of people don’t like to talk about. Sometimes we’ll question sexuality. Sometimes we’ll have sexual dysfunction. These things interfere with relationships. There’s no criminal court that will look at an 11 or 12 or 13 year old child who’s sexually abused and say, “Well, I’m going to award $500,000 or 600,000, or a million or 2 million, or ten million dollars to account for all of these things that we expect you to be impacted with over the next 65 years of life expectancy.” It just doesn’t work that way. The side note to that, Sandie, is that even if it did in the perfect world, where the abuser is caught and prosecuted and sentenced under California’s laws, they’re going to be away for a while. So, if they don’t have money sitting around, they’re not going to pay any kind of judgment. Even if a judge ordered hundreds of thousands of dollars of restitution on a criminal case, what happens from a practical standpoint is the victim gets a restitution order, then he or she can go in and try to enforce the restitution order. It becomes a judgment, and then it’s enforceable as a judgment. So go and enforce the judgment against somebody that doesn’t have any assets to speak of, and doesn’t have any prospects for future earnings. It’s just a piece of paper. Sandra Morgan 28:05 So with the civil approach, how does that overcome that hurdle? Daniel Varon 28:11 The civil approach, what we really emphasize in our cases is, whether there are other entities that are responsible for the abuse that happened. If there was a school or a church, or a business or something that was aware that somebody was a risk to abuse, and they turned a blind eye, they covered it up, or what have you, they didn’t follow their own policies and procedures, things like that. If there’s an entity that’s responsible, then you can bring a lawsuit against the entity and you can achieve restitution that way. A lot of the entities are insured, for example, for negligence. If they’ve negligently failed to protect somebody from a known abuser, or they negligently fail to supervise their agent, their teacher, their priest, whatever, then that’s something that they can be held accountable for, and that’s a way to achieve restitution for a victim of some of these offenses. Sandra Morgan 29:10 I’ve worked in the public, non-profit sector for decades, and this is always, in my job description, under ‘risk management,’ because we know that we need to follow certain guidelines. For me, I’m curious if you feel that this approach supports maybe transferring some of the, I can’t really find the right words, but I’ve gone into hotels, to hospitals, to churches, and done training, but it’s always been- not always, I don’t want to say always- it often feels like I’m just checking a box. But when you hit the bottom line, it’s more than checking a box. Can you give me your understanding of that aspect on restitution? Daniel Varon 30:15 Yeah, well, that’s 100% right. The reality is that there are, in our society, there are institutions that we put our trust in all the time, and we trust them with our most precious also. We’re talking about schools. We trust the school to supervise our children, we don’t even think about it most of the time. You have a kid, kid’s in second grade, you go to the first day of school, you drop them off at school. If it’s a private school, maybe you looked at the school, you interviewed there, and you looked at the facilities and all of that. But how many of us are going into the personnel records and checking to see if somebody’s had a prior complaint of abuse? We don’t get to do that, even if you wanted to, but most of us wouldn’t even think to ask that. And we kind of take for granted that these schools that have, really by having a name on the door, we trust them. If it’s a public school, it has the added credibility of being a government institution, and we trust them. We just drop our kids off, and then we come back six hours later and pick them up. And that’s it. If you want to make sure that institutions are doing what they’re supposed to do when you entrust your most precious things in the world, your children to them, then you have to hold them accountable when they fail to do it, because, like you said, the last thing that they want to do is lose funding. Whether it’s a private or public institution, they don’t want to lose funding. Most of these institutions are insured, and insurance companies are in the business of managing risk, and if you can’t follow the insurance company’s guidelines on managing your risk, you’re not going to get insurance, which means you’re going to be exposed as an entity to the liability. Some insurance policies have exclusions. One of the exclusions they have is that they don’t insure things that are expected or intended. So think about it this way: you get in your car, you get into an accident, god forbid, you’re insured. Because you had an accident. It’s negligence on your part or somebody else’s part, or both your parts. That’s what insurance is for. We buy it and hope we never need it, that’s what it’s for, it’s for those accidents. You drive your car and you see somebody you don’t like on the sidewalk, and you decide to intentionally drive your car up on the sidewalk and run them down, that’s intended. Now, insurance company is going to say, “Sorry, we have an expected or intended clause, you’re excluded. We’re not covering that. You’re on your own.” Well, let’s say you had a teacher in a school that was continually accused by students of sexual abuse. They keep reporting it, and the school investigates it, and then they don’t really do much about the teacher. Well, at some point, an insurance company could look at that and say, “This is expected or intended, we’re not covering this,” and then the schools on the hook. They don’t want that. It’s a way of giving them a negative incentive to do what they should do anyway, and how it translates into trafficking is, ou’ve got civil laws that specifically allow a plaintiff who’s been trafficked to hold institutions, the one that always comes to mind is hotels and motels, accountable. If they’re not doing their part to prevent human trafficking on their premises, and that’s another avenue for victims to achieve restitution, is through those institutions that were in a position to help, had an obligation to help, and didn’t. Sandra Morgan 33:44 I have so much hope in how this translates in our communities to more corporate responsibility, more government responsibility. Because even if the initial response is not because I presented a passionate cry to protect our children, but because the board of directors is expecting that the bottom line is met. This is like a new tool, maybe not so new, but certainly you’re fine tuning the approach so that it actually is, like you said earlier, a progression in your work. In our final moments here, I’d love to hear, what have you changed your mind about since you started this journey as an advocate fighting human trafficking? Daniel Varon 34:45 You know, I’ve given that a lot of thought, and it’s a complicated question. Because I feel like I’ve gone through this evolution, not only as a prosecutor, not only as an attorney, but as a human being, and as a father, as a husband. I mean, I’ve learned so much in the process. I started my life as a prosecutor in Orange County, which we always refer to it as being ‘behind the orange curtain.’ We said there was such a difference between the way they prosecute crimes in LA and Orange County, and we really prided ourselves on what we viewed as the relative safety of Orange County, and we felt that we were an integral part of that, and that meant that our job was in seeking justice, to hold people accountable for what they did. We believed very strongly in personal responsibility, and so that’s how we approach the job. As a young and naive prosecutor in the mid i2000s, let’s say 2006/2007-2010, if you saw a young woman come into court with prostitution charges, you would see the same thing. That she had been in three or four, or five different jurisdictions. She got arrested and then failed to appear in each one of those jurisdictions. I would look at that, say, “She’s thumbing her nose. She’s giving the big middle finger to the courts. She’s just saying, ‘I don’t care about you. Your law doesn’t matter. Whatever.'” You would say, “Well, Judge, she needs 90 days of jail. She’s got to be in jail,” and that’s the only tool we thought we had, right. When we get to 2010/2011 and I start working with the guys I mentioned earlier, started to learn the victimology component and what it was that was driving this set of crimes. We didn’t stop to think, ‘How does this young woman, who’s been to five different places to get arrested, how does she get here? She doesn’t live here, but she’s got no phone and she’s got no wallet, she’s got no money.’ We never stopped to think about that, right. Part of it was learning that in 2011 let’s say, and understanding the bigger picture to the crime, and understanding that these were victims that were being brought there, that were being exploited. That changed everything. What it gave me was a sense of greater empathy and understanding to the human trafficking world, and I think that we try to operate,as much as we can, with that empathy and understanding and victim centered approach. But I say it’s an evolution because empathy can be great, but empathy can go too far. I know that in today’s day and age, that might be a very controversial thing to say, and if my wife listens to this it may be controversial in my own house, but it can be. I think where I’ve come today, through this evolution, is that what we do needs to be informed by an empathetic approach and an understanding of both sides of an issue and who we’re dealing with, but blind empathy can also be very dangerous. It can remove from us skepticism, which can be very important, especially as an attorney, you have to have a skeptical eye about a lot of things. But it’s also counterproductive for the person that you’re empathetic towards. You can kill somebody with kindness, and I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it with an approach to victims sometimes, and I’ve seen it with an approach to clients sometimes, where you want to do everything for a person because you care so deeply about what they’ve been through, and you want to help them, but you remove their ability to learn to help themselves. If somebody doesn’t learn to help themselves, they’re never going to get out of the human trafficking life. They’re never going to heal from sexual abuse. They, I think more than anything, what I’ve seen is that people who’ve been victimized, just like the rest of us, they need empathic understanding from people around them, but they also need structure and guidance, they need to have confidence, and they need to know that they have the ability to stand on their own feet and walk forward. Sometimes empathy can be an impediment to that. Sandra Morgan 38:51 Wow. Okay, a little choked up here. I’m going to spend some time thinking about that, and I’m so grateful, Daniel, that you came to the podcast today. I’m probably going to call you again once I process all of that. Wow, that was not what I thought you’d say, but really valuable. And I ask listeners to maybe go back and listen to that part again, just hit your rewind button. As we’re winding up here, I want to tell our listeners thank you, and go to the endinghumantrafficking.org website, and in the show notes you’ll find previous interviews and interviews with the people that Daniel mentioned here. Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and I’ll be back in two weeks. Danny, thank you so much. Daniel Varon 39:49 Thank you, Sandie, it’s such a pleasure to talk to you.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by the Live2Free president, Delaney Mininger, as the two discuss the upcoming Fair Trade Fashion Show at Vanguard University. Delaney Mininger Delaney is the president of the Live2Free club at Vanguard University and the Global Center for Women and Justice. Delaney is a third year student at Vanguard and a sociology major. She says her passion for preventing human trafficking started at just 11 years old when her mom went with a team to Italy to help women involved in trafficking there. Key Points The Fair Trade Fashion Show promotes self-expression through fashion while encouraging consumers to consider the ethical implications of their clothing choices and the production processes that affect the dignity of workers. Fast fashion contributes to overconsumption and supports exploitative labor practices. The culture of buying cheap clothing leads to waste and supports industries that profit from modern slavery. The podcast emphasizes the importance of supporting Fair Trade items and thrifting as ethical alternatives. Fair Trade ensures that workers receive fair wages, while thrifting helps reduce waste and is often more accessible for budget-conscious consumers. The Live2Free club, through initiatives like the Safe Kids, Safe Communities Program, aims to educate youth about human trafficking, healthy relationships, and online safety, filling an educational gap often overlooked in traditional school curriculums. Human trafficking is a global issue, not just a problem in the U.S. The Fair Trade Fashion Show aims to encourage audiences to recognize their role as consumers and to make informed choices that can contribute to reducing demand for exploitative labor practices. Resources Live2Free FairTrade International Fair Trade Fashion Show Goodwill of Orange County Fiet Gratia Tony’s Chocolonely Fair Trade Fashion Show Tool Kit Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #330: Fast Fashion Meets Justice, with Live2Free Students at Vanguard University. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so happy to have Delaney Mininger here in the studio with me for today’s podcast. Delaney is the president of the Live2Free club at Vanguard University and the Global Center for Women and Justice. Delaney is a third year student at Vanguard and a sociology major. She says her passion for preventing human trafficking started at just 11 years old when her mom went with a team to Italy to help women involved in trafficking there. So Delaney, thank you for coming in today. Delaney Mininger 1:25 Yeah, thank you for having me. Sandra Morgan 1:27 How long have you been president of the Live2Free club? Delaney Mininger 1:31 I have just become president this year. I’ve been fully onboarded. I did some work over the summer, but officially starting at the beginning of this school year I became president. Sandra Morgan 1:42 So maybe I should be addressing you as Madam President. Delaney Mininger 1:45 Perhaps. Sandra Morgan 1:46 Perhaps, oh my goodness. Okay, so one of the first things that happens every fall is we dive right in here at Vanguard with the Live2Free club for a Fair Trade Fashion Show. How did you get involved with that? Delaney Mininger 2:05 Yeah, so my first experience with the fashion show was actually during Welcome Week. I was walking through the campus mall, and I walked up to a booth that was talking about human trafficking. Like forementioned, my mom had been working with victims of human trafficking since I was younger, and so I had an interest, and I just saw that there was a fashion show, and I thought that was such a fun way to get involved and to get some experience with clubs and different activities on campus. I signed up for that fashion show. I signed up to volunteer as a model, and that year was so fun. I met a bunch of people. I made a lot of friends. It was a really great experience. I love fashion, I love thrifting, it’s a big passion of mine, and has been for a couple years now. So I thought it was just so me, and it fit so well. The next year, my sophomore year, one of the interns asked if I would take on a management level position for the fashion show, still volunteer, and just help out with the other models since I had experience from the year before, so I just helped out there with the fashion show, leading some models. As the year went on, I got closer with the interns and they were telling me that I should interview for the positions and get more involved with the club, and I just had a big passion for it, so I got more involved, and that kind of just led to me being here. Sandra Morgan 3:27 And now we’re just days away from the fair trade fashion show. So tell us about your theme for this year’s show. Delaney Mininger 3:36 Our theme for this year is Fashion with a Passion, and Fashion with a Passion is all about considering the individual. In one aspect, fashion is something that the individual can use to express who they are and what they love. I have a lot of people tell me, “Your style is so cohesive, it’s so you. How did you figure this out? You’ve got it all together.” And I usually tell them, “Yes, my style is me, and the reason why it fits is because it’s just everything that I am and everything that I love.” You would point at something and say, “Oh, this looks like something you would like,” instead of, “This is you, you are this and you’re in this box.” It’s like, I have curated my style just to be me and a collaboration of everything that I love and I am. And so I encourage that other people do that, and I love to tell other people that your style should be you, and you should make your own choices of what that’s going to be. We want to make sure that when we’re considering those choices and we’re making those choices for ourselves as the individual, we’re not forgetting about the individual who is allowing us to make those choices, and who’s making it possible for us to express ourselves in that way. We want to make sure that we’re not getting self centered, we’re not thinking about ourselves in a way, but we’re thinking about those who make it possible for us to do that. Sandra Morgan 4:56 Let me ask a question here, because I love this idea, and even though I’m a few generations removed from the students here at Vanguard, I get put in boxes. I get messages on social media that tell me what to wear for my age, and I don’t like that. I’m really leaning into this Fashion with a Passion, but my problem is, how do I do that? Fit my budget, number one, well, maybe number two, because number one is, how do I make it fit my values? People all know how strongly I believe that we have to be part of the solution to ending labor trafficking. So how do I make this fit my values? Delaney Mininger 5:49 A big part of making sure that something fits your values, especially when it comes to fashion, is that you have the opportunity to shop Fairtrade, and a lot of us have the opportunity to do that. Fair trade basically just means that it’s a trading partnership that aims to improve the trading conditions for marginalized producers and workers in developing countries. It’s based on principles of dialogue, transparency, and respect, and seeks to create a greater equity in international trade. The great thing about fair trade is that we have so many different options of what fair trade items we can buy, and then for those who can’t afford fair trade as it does tend to be more on the expensive side, because we’re making sure that every step is taken to ensure that people are getting paid fair wages and what they should be, and treated properly. It does tend to be on the more expensive side, but there is alternative options, such as thrifting or second hand shopping. Sandra Morgan 6:46 Let me ask you about that, it’s more expensive. Because people have complained to me about that, and I’ve challenged that thinking because I’m not sure that we need so much stuff. Delaney Mininger 7:02 Yeah. Sandra Morgan 7:03 Maybe it’s better for us as consumers to think about how much we really need, versus what we want, while at the same time we’re thinking about how it impacts someone else. Is it expensive if someone is getting paid a fair wage? if I’m contrasting that, and here’s my question, if it’s less expensive and it costs someone their dignity, their freedom, is that too high a price for us to pay so that we can save a few dollars? Delaney Mininger 7:50 Yeah, I think that’s really important, is to consider the cost and the trade off. I think the term Fair Trade really well represents what it is, because yes, you are making that trade. You are getting this item, and you are knowing that it is not at the cost of somebody else. You’re knowing that it’s not at the cost of their dignity and who they are, and the value that they have as a person. It is a fair trade that you are getting this item for yourself and that they are getting treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve. I think that’s such an important part of this. Talking with older generations, especially, they’ve kind of gotten a lot better at decreasing their consumption and, talking to one of my advisors, they talked about a capsule closet, I think was the term they used, which is like investing in pieces that are going to last longer and going to be better quality. I think that when we’re factoring in the treatment of the people who make them, that just adds even more to it. It’s not just something that you’re going to buy one week and get sick of and throw out the next because it didn’t cost you much, so it doesn’t matter, but it’s something that you are investing in for yourself and for the treatment of others. So it’s going to last long, you’re going to love it for a long time, and you’re going to know that the values that were made to make that item are something that you agree with. Sandra Morgan 9:17 Wow, I love that, and I love that you’re having conversations with your professors, with staff here at Vanguard. It reminds me of one of the co-founders here of the Global Center for Women and Justice. When she first started mentoring me, we had this conversation, that’s a lot of years ago I’m not even going to say how long, and I asked her what she did. She said, “I have a simple rule. If I’m going to get a blouse, I have to decide what blouse I’m getting rid of that is already in my closet.” And I lived overseas for several years, and one of my best friends and I love to travel together. When I’m with a group of Americans, I feel like, okay, I’m doing pretty well because my suitcase is only this big and their’s, I can’t even lift it. But then I’m with my friend in Greece, and we’re going on a three day weekend, and I said, “Do you want me to help you get your bag?” “Oh no, I’ve got it.” Everything. She’s got everything in a backpack for three days. I think it is part of a mentality, and we can do a better job with less. Delaney Mininger 10:43 We’ve definitely become more accustomed to thinking that we need more things than we do. Sandra Morgan 10:48 We could have another conversation about the difference between need and want. Okay, back to the fashion show, because you and I could chat about this, we agree so much. How does the fashion show impact global slavery? Delaney Mininger 11:05 A big aspect of the fashion show is decreasing over consumption, like we were just talking about, as it’s one of the main drivers behind the fast fashion industry and other unethical businesses. For anybody who doesn’t know, fast fashion is basically industries that benefit from people who buy so much, so many pieces of clothing, and they buy them at very cheap prices so that they can throw them out, or they can do whatever, and it doesn’t really affect them because they didn’t pay too much for those items. Sandra Morgan 11:36 Is that like the the culture of ‘I have to have an entire new spring wardrobe, and then a fall wardrobe, and then a holiday wardrobe.’ Delaney Mininger 11:44 And it’s not just seasonal. I mean, with social media, we see so many trends come and go within months, and it becomes this huge thing that everybody’s doing. So then everybody thinks, well, “everybody’s doing” so then everybody thinks that they have to be doing it, and then they buy all of these items, and then all of a sudden they see something that says, ‘this is out, this is in.’ Then everybody’s like, “Oh, well, now I got to throw all that away, and I got to get all this,” and they want to buy them cheap, because if trends are going to come and go like that, then you want to be able to dispose of the items that are out and buy the items that are in. And so social media has definitely increased that over consumption. How does the Fair Trade fashion show counter that? Well, I mean, just in general, if there’s a profit to be made, there are always people who are going to do whatever it takes to make that profit, and they don’t care how it’s going to disparage somebody else or how it’s going to affect somebody else. So we want to make sure, at the fashion show, that we’re encouraging others, that it is important, that we do care, and it is important that we don’t support businesses that profit off of labor trafficking and what we would consider modern day slavery. We encourage, like we said, second hand shopping, thrifting, buying fair trade items. We invite vendors who are fair trade vendors, and we’ve reviewed all of their practices and made sure that they are employing ethical practices. And then we ask them to advertise their clothing and their food, their jewelry, whatever it is that they have, we ask them to advertise those to our audiences so that they know how many options there are to shop Fairtrade and how many choices that they can make that are ethical and that they are not forced into encouraging this negative behavior that leads to disparaging others. Sandra Morgan 13:30 When I go to the fashion show, I can shop? Delaney Mininger 13:32 Oh yeah, we have so much shopping. No, we don’t want to encourage over consumption. So yes, shop responsibly, shop what you need, but also you can walk away knowing that the things that you did buy are going towards a good cause, and they’re not something that is against your values. Sandra Morgan 13:53 If we’re shopping responsibly and we want to have a great fashion show, how are we going to get clothes that university students with student debt can afford? Delaney Mininger 14:08 That’s definitely a big thing. I would say it is a big privilege to shop Fairtrade. It’s a privilege to be able to afford those more expensive items, and we want to make sure that nobody feels like they don’t have an option to also support ethical businesses and ethical practices. We have partners like Goodwill of Orange County who get their clothing donated to them, and then they sell them for much cheaper than the retail prices that you’re going to be seeing. Most stores, I’d say shirts are like 30, 25, at the lowest right now, and Goodwill does like 7, 8, 9, so you’re having a way lower price range, and then it’s just more accessible and more affordable to those who want to shop ethically and want to make sure that they’re not going against their values, but also are on a budget, like us college students. I mean, for me, I even have to be careful about how much I’m thrifting because I am on a budget, and I need to make sure that I’m not over consuming and also that I’m not overspending. Sandra Morgan 15:16 What I love about thrifting, and I’ve been a big fan since the Fair Trade Fashion Show first started here, and I learned how to do that better, is number one, it doesn’t go into a landfill, it gets recycled. So in many ways for me, thrifting is like recycling bottles and bags and all those things. Yeah. It seems like it disrupts the economic cycle of buy, buy, buy, by giving an item of clothing another life. At first I kind of struggled, but I know this brand that I just picked up at the thrift store, and I know they don’t have good practices, so it really became important for me to study what it meant to disrupt that cycle, because that is another aspect of the ethics. I think I also wanted to commend your leadership team for vetting the vendors who will be at the fashion show. Who are they representing? How are they demonstrating that their supply chain is clean of exploited and trafficked labor? So when you’re thrifting, tell me what your experience is, how you take your values into the thrift store with you? Delaney Mininger 16:51 Well, like a lot of people my age and even people older, I started thrifting because it’s all my bank account could handle at the time. I probably started thrifting my sophomore year of high school, and being a younger sister, I just wanted something other than hand-me-downs, because that’s what I had had for most of my life. I just wanted to have more freedom over my expression of self and I couldn’t afford anything other than thrifting, so a couple friends and I started thrifting, and it very quickly became an activity that we all loved to do together, because not only is it more affordable, but it’s fun. I mean, it’s definitely different than your average shopping experience. Every single item is unique, and you’re not going to find two of the same thing, but it’s just really fun. It’s a fun activity for me, and so that’s originally why I had started thrifting, is because it’s what I could afford, and it was a fun activity. But as I learned more about the impact that the fast fashion industry was having and that overconsumption was having, on not just our society and our people, how we treat people, but also our environment. I like that you said that, that you were saying these clothes get recycled. That’s such a big part of it, because the fast fashion industries, they toss out those clothes and they end up in landfill, and the textile industry contributes to so much of the pollution that we’re experiencing in our environment right now. I loved that it had an environmental impact, it had a societal impact, that was something that was so important to me, and so I very rarely shop retail anymore, because of how much I love the experience of thrifting. It’s also a great way to bond. When I meet new people and I tell them that I like to thrift, and I found out that they like to thrift, it’s a great activity to do together, because it’s something that is just so unique. It’s different than other shopping experiences. Sandra Morgan 18:43 I think I’ve watched our Vanguard community, our students, really institute thrifting as an activity that is socially aware, at the same time as socially beneficial to creating strong relationships. And this was epitomized for me when I took a team in 2023 to Madrid, Spain. We were working with a group called Fiet, who works with victims of human trafficking, identifying, restoration, now they’re moving into prevention, and we’re taking another team there in 2025, and our student team said, “Dr Morgan, we’re going to go shopping. When do we have to be back?” When they came back, they had all these bags. They found the thrift store in Madrid, and so they took what they’ve been doing here, on their trip internationally. I think this is a growing trend here, Delaney Mininger 19:52 I think it is one of the better trends, because we are seeing a lot more influencers who aren’t just shopping at these, I mean of course, we see a lot of hauls that are just crazy amounts of things, and they are a lot of the time from businesses that we wouldn’t necessarily want to support, but a lot more influencers and just popular people on social media are encouraging thrifting, and I think that’s a great trend. I think we should be encouraging that, and even if you are buying more of those items, you know that you are not directly supporting businesses that don’t match your values. Sandra Morgan 20:27 And disrupting that cycle is just one piece of the big picture. We also are focusing on asking businesses to follow supply chain transparency best practices. We’re asking businesses to look at the workers along that supply chain and how they’re caring for that. We’re asking our communities to actually learn about how this works. Yesterday, I had a dear friend here in the office. She’s been a mentor for me, and so we’re talking about another generation, she could probably be your great, great grandmother. Delaney Mininger 21:16 Oh, wow. Sandra Morgan 21:17 And I gave her a Chocolonely bar, and she asked me all about it. Chocolonely is the chocolate from the Netherlands where the founder actually had himself arrested because he contributed to labor trafficking. Of course, they dropped the charges, but he made the issue on the front page, so people realized that his choice to eat chocolate enslaved a child in Africa. That’s the kind of awareness that we want to create here. And as my friend was leaving and she picked up the remains of her chocolate bar, she said, “Well, now I have to buy chocolate that doesn’t use any slave labor.” It changed her life. and I think we are hoping that the Fair Trade Fashion Show will make that kind of impact right here in our own community. Let me ask you one more question. Rnding human trafficking has listeners in 166 countries. Why does this matter to them? Isn’t this just a problem in America? Delaney Mininger 22:39 I think that’s probably a question that a lot of people have. I, as we talked about earlier, know that human trafficking is not something that just happens in America. Labor trafficking is not just something that happens in America. Modern day slavery happens all over the globe right now, and it’s a huge problem that people are facing everywhere, in countries like Venezuela, in countries like Chile, Brazil, there’s so much labor trafficking going on, whether it be for our clothing or for our food, and though it might not be right in our backyard, we might not be the ones with slaves who are asking them to do these things, if we’re supporting businesses that are asking that of people, that are asking people to live with no wages, asking people to work with no wages, or in bad living conditions, then that’s not right. That’s just as bad as being the problem, contributing to it, letting people benefit from that unethical practice, it’s not something that we want to be doing. So it’s important to people in all these different countries that are listening to this podcast to know that it is happening all around you. And even if you are not the one that has a slave, you’re not the one that’s directly contributing to it, you’re still being a part of the problem if you aren’t checking yourself and checking what you’re buying, checking the practices behind. It’s not enough to just not be the problem. You have to make sure that you’re taking every effort you can and in every choice that you have, making sure that it matches your values and it matches what you want to do and who you want to support. We really want to encourage people, at the Fashion Show, to check their options, check what they can do. We know that it’s all around us. It’s something that we’re going to run into no matter what, and it’s difficult. It’s definitely harder not to be a part of the problem, but it is possible, it’s possible to not contribute to that. I think we should have that conversation of what is a want and what is a need? What things do we need? Those things that we do need, how can we make sure that when we are buying them, we are buying them in a way that represents who we are and represents how we feel about people and what they deserve? That’s such a big part of Live2Free and our mission. The fashion show is not only a great opportunity to mix people’s passion for fashion and passion for social justice, but it’s a great way to encourage people to check themselves, check their choices and when they’re expressing themselves, which is a freedom and privilege that they have, to also think about the individual behind that. Think about the individual who is giving them the opportunity to do that and the freedom to do that. At Live2Free, I just want to give our mission statement, we challenge a generation to make personal choices that recognize the dignity of the individual, the responsibility of consumers to slow the demand that drives modern day slavery, and to network with others, to rescue, rebuild, and restore the broken lives of victims. That’s our mission, and that is just a huge part of the fashion show and something that we really want all of our attendees to see and feel and relate to, and then take that and act on it. Sandra Morgan 25:51 Delaney, your passion comes across so well in that and I believe you are living that mission statement. This is another generation of Vanguard students from Live2Free that will go out into the world and end up in some of those 166 countries, making their passion, living, and useful, hands on. Let me ask you how people can connect with Live2Free. Delaney Mininger 26:25 With our Live2Free club, you guys can connect with us. If anybody’s on campus listening here at Vanguard University, you can come up to us, any of the cabinet members. There’s Kevin Arciga as our vice president, Chloe McLeroy as our communications chair, and me, Delaney Miniger as president. You guys can come up to us, ask us questions, get involved. For anybody listening anywhere else, our social media is @_live2free_ on Instagram, and we also have our email, l2f@vanguarduniversity.edu that you guys are able to contact if you guys have any questions, if you want to find out how you can get involved, how you can support us on our mission, even if it’s from a distance. We would totally appreciate that, and we’re always looking forward to hearing from anybody who has questions or wants to get involved. That’s some ways that you can reach us. Sandra Morgan 27:17 I heard that if you are a teacher in Orange County, you can ask for a Live2Free team to come to your school. Is that true? Delaney Mininger 27:27 Yes, that’s going to be our Safe Kids, Safe Communities Program, which was originally peer educators, and that’s also a way that I got involved with the club, originally. Before even becoming president, I became a peer educator, and I got to have the experience of going to these different high schools and teaching kids things that I certainly was never taught in high school. We’ve had a lot of other people on the team say very similar things, that it’s just so great to be able to share this experience with them, share this information with them, because it’s something that we lacked when we were in high school. It totally would have been helpful for us to have somebody older than us but still in a similar age range, somebody that could still relate to us, just let us know that they care about us, and they care about our well being and who we are, and what we are going to do with our lives, they care about what happens to us. I mean, that would have been so life changing for me to hear at that age, and I think it really is for a lot of these kids, important to hear that somebody, anybody, cares about them and their well being, and the choices that they make. We talk about different things like healthy relationships, online safety, we do overviews of human trafficking, and it’s just something that the health programs at schools, especially when I was in high school, were totally lacking, and it’s vital information. We want to make sure that we’re getting out there and sharing that with kids and sharing that with teachers too, so that they know how to help kids the best that they can and recognize signs of kids who are in danger or kids who are at risk. We want to make sure that they are aware of those things so that they can help them, and it’s just so important to us. I love the peer educators team and I would definitely recommend, if you guys are on campus, any Vanguard students, getting involved with that, it’s a really great opportunity. We have a good team lined up, and we’ve been doing so much to prepare to go back to these high schools. If you can get involved, highly recommend it. If you can support this in any way that you can, we definitely recommend. Sandra Morgan 29:27 Thank you so much your passion, like I said, your passion is contagious. For our listeners who aren’t in Orange County, reach out to us. We would love to give you some resources, get you connected, because you can raise up an army just like this in your own community. Thank you for being here. Have a great day. Delaney Mininger 29:53 Thank you for having me. I will have a good day, you have a good day too. Sandra Morgan 29:57 Okay, bye, bye. Delaney Mininger 29:59 Bye. Sandra Morgan 29:59 Listeners, we’re inviting you to head over to the endinghumantrafficking.org website. That’s where you can find resources we’ve mentioned in this conversation and so much more. Check out the Fair Trade Fashion Show Tool Kit. If you haven’t visited our website before, a great first step is to become a subscriber, then you’ll receive an email with the show notes with each new episode every two weeks. Of course, I’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by her friend and colleague, Madeline Rodriguez, as the two discuss the importance of restorative practices. Madeline Rodriguez Madeline Rodriguez is the Director of Programs at Project Kinship, where she leads and works alongside teams dedicated to supporting and training individuals impacted by incarceration, gangs, community violence, and trauma. She has a strong background in community intervention, clinical leadership, and restorative practices. Madeline is passionate about providing culturally competent, community based, behavioral and mental health services. Key Points Project Kinship aims to provide a sense of home and community for individuals impacted by incarceration, gangs, violence, and trauma. The organization’s approach fosters a judgment-free environment where individuals can feel safe to express their pain and experiences. To ensure an individual feels heard and supported in their healing journey, it is important to use trauma-informed care. One aspect of this is empathic accuracy, which involves understanding and responding accurately to the emotional state of an individual. Restorative practices play a crucial role in addressing community violence and individual trauma. These practices focus on repairing relationships, building community, and cultivating leadership while maintaining the emotional safety of participants. Project Kinship engages with community partners and employs “live handoffs” rather than simple referrals, ensuring vulnerable individuals receive the support they need and foster meaningful connections to promote healing and stability. Consistent, supportive relationships and interventions can help facilitate healing and personal growth in both youth and adults. With dedication and the right support, healing is possible for those affected by trauma. Resources Project Kinship International Institute for Restorative Practices Project AWARE 268: Rebuilding the Brain, with Dr. Anne Light Alternatives to Violence Project team Intraconnected by Dr. Daniel Siegel Neuro Sequential Model of Therapeutics Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #329: When Violence, Gangs and Incarceration are Part of the Culture, Where Does Restoration Begin?, with Maddie Rodriguez. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I’m recording in my office at Vanguard University, and Madeline Rodriguez is in the office with me, I call her Maddie. She is a dear friend and respected colleague. She is the Director of Programs at Project Kinship, where she leads and works alongside teams dedicated to supporting and training individuals impacted by incarceration, gangs, community violence, and trauma. Maddie has a strong background in community intervention, clinical leadership, and restorative practices. She is passionate about providing culturally competent, community based, behavioral and mental health services. There is so much more to learn about Maddie, and we’re going to dive right into our conversation. Thank you so much for being here with me. Madeline Rodriguez 1:46 Thank you for having me. Dr Morgan, it’s such a privilege and honor to be here with you this morning. Sandra Morgan 1:51 How long have you been at Project Kinship? Madeline Rodriguez 1:55 I’m going on four years. Four years at Project Kinship. Sandra Morgan 1:59 I would love to know how your life has changed in four years of working in this community. Madeline Rodriguez 2:12 Well, using some humor, I’d say I got my first gray hair. Sandra Morgan 2:17 Oh, well, that’s kind of fun. Madeline Rodriguez 2:20 But I’d like to think that it’s wisdom that now is being imparted to me, and now growing from within and out. No, it has been a phenomenal journey getting to this place and really embracing what we call at Project Kinship, the heartbeat of Project Kinship. Sandra Morgan 2:41 I love walking into Project Kinship, the sense that for so many, this is home. Can you just explain what that means when you see that on the wall? Madeline Rodriguez 2:56 Yeah. So for those of you that haven’t visited our office, we welcome you to come visit. We love having individuals come by to tour. But as Dr. Morgan is mentioning, we always say you get two welcomes when you come into the doors at Project Kinship. The first, we have a wonderful gentleman named Carlos, and he will greet you with a big old smile and say, “Welcome to Project Kinship, I’m glad you’re here,” and the second welcome is that quote on the wall that you’ll see. And Steve often tells a story of how he came up with that, because when we first received the building and knew that Project Kinship was going to be moving into that facility, Steve was nervous about putting a quote on the wall. He tells his story all the time. He spent eight hours, candles lit, eight hours of Mariah Carey on the background to try to help him with his Writer’s cramp. He ended up coming up with something to the effect of, “In your darkest hour, let hope be the light that sees you through.” He went the next day to the office, and was there with one of our community members and great friends, his name is Ruben. He asked Reuben about this quote and when he told Ruben the quote, he was like, “Oh, it’s okay.” He was like, I spent eight hours, Mariah Carey, candles lit, how is it just okay? And he said, “Well, if you have something to say, what would your words be on that wall?” Ruben said, “Well, I’m a lot more humble than you, so my words would not be on the wall, but if they were, it would say something like, ‘Welcome to Kinship, where judgment and pain are left at the door, you are home.'” Steve’s mouth dropped and said, “How did you come up with that in 20 seconds? I spent like eight hours trying to figure something out.” He goes, “Steve, it’s simple,” and he’s a very tall gentleman, tattoos on the face, “When I’m in the community, people look at me like they bit into a Sour Lemon. But when I come here, I feel like I’m at home. I’m not judged, I’m received, and I can leave my pain at the door.” That’s the welcome, and that’s the sentiment. When people see our brand, they see the logo, whether we’re in the community, behind glass at a facility, or at our home base, we want people to feel like they’re at home. Sandra Morgan 5:12 I love it. I absolutely love it. And for my students, who have got to have the opportunity to be there, have partnered with you in schools, it is a life changing experience, because there is a certain amount of skill that is necessary to create that judge-free, and yet structured and safe community. We’re going to talk about that right now, with the hope that for many of our listeners, you’ll pick up some new vocabulary, you’ll find links to new resources, and begin to consider what does this look like in your community? Because this is necessary for every community, to have the kind of resource that Project Kinship has. So my first question is, how do you approach and integrate trauma informed care and mental health support, specifically for youth at risk of exploitation? Madeline Rodriguez 6:31 Thank you for that question, Sandie, and it goes back to something that you just mentioned about, the skill sets that are required to create that environment. When you ask this question, the first thing that comes to mind is being still. When I say that, it means that oftentimes in the community service, social work field, we feel like we’re always making momentum or moving with, or journeying with, and often it’s forgotten that one of the key components in even starting is just being able to be still and stand with. Standing with individuals that are at the margins and those that are most impacted by trauma, violence, exploitation. This requires cultural humility. It requires empathic accuracy. Sandra Morgan 7:25 What is empathic accuracy? Madeline Rodriguez 7:28 Glad you asked. I’ve been doing a lot of research on empathic accuracy and coining this term. We know that it’s important to empathize with individuals, but I would like to say empathy is not enough. Empathy with accuracy, and accurate tracking, and standing and sitting with, is what’s required to mirror, model, shift with that person, to really attune and be with them. So, that empathic accuracy means I’m not only here sitting with this emotion and feeling, but I’m also making sure that how I’m presenting myself with you, with what you’re bringing into the room, is what you need in this moment. Sandra Morgan 8:11 So the accuracy is measured in what way? Madeline Rodriguez 8:18 How the individual feels when you are mirroring, modeling, tone of voice, body language. An individual, for example, I hear practitioners all the time say, “Yeah, I’m empathizing. I can really feel that emotion, but I didn’t know what to do with myself,” when they were saying or bringing that thing, that emotion or that situation in the space. That accuracy part is being able to hold, and yes, I’m empathizing with that person, I’m also being able to maneuver and knowing what to do with what’s being brought into the room. Sandra Morgan 8:59 Okay, this takes me back to being a pediatric night charge nurse and being empathetic was part of the job. I mean children in pain, and in your case, we have young people who are in a great amount of pain, but it’s not going to help them if I burst into tears and can’t help them with the next step. So when I think about this concept of empathetic accuracy, I’m remembering how important it was for me to demonstrate that mirror and then model a safe and confident response to their pain. I can just give you lots of incidents where, when you show up and you have to give a child a shot, and they’re like screaming and everything, I learned how to be empathetic and at the same time, help them manage the fear, the anxiety, the pain, and dial it back so that it didn’t completely unhinge the situation. You’re going to have to send me some guided reading. Maybe we’ll put a link to something, because I think this is a great term. Madeline Rodriguez 10:41 Absolutely, and you hit the nail on the head with those examples. That’s exactly what that would look like when we have youth that are coming in and sharing some of the deepest wounds of their own pain, oftentimes not even physical, emotional. For our staff, it’s being able to, just as you said, being able to sit with, feel it, but manage and again, attuned in a way that they can support that youth in an appropriate manner, to help them regulate and provide what’s needed for them to also put the lid back onto the container so that they can still continue forward with their day. We can’t move or shift what they’re bringing with them right now. What we can hope to do is help them hold, regulate, and allow them to know that there’s a safe place for them to contain that, and allow us to walk with them when they’re ready to walk. Sandra Morgan 11:43 Okay. Can you explain about how you address the kinds of challenges that you encounter when you’re trying to create that trauma informed safe space? Madeline Rodriguez 12:04 Yeah. So even when we talk about how we approach situations, how we approach our community members, it really is a comprehensive approach, and we have to look at all the different pieces that an individual is bringing with them. Because oftentimes, it’s not just one thing that’s happening. There is an array of different barriers or challenges. I am thinking of an incident with a young individual from one of our school sites, probably two years ago at this point. This individual initially was struggling on campus and was referred to the restorative practice specialists that they had at the school, only to find out that there were challenges that were going on at home with caregivers. There were challenges in the community of where this individual lived, a lot of violence that was happening. When you have this young person, we had a look at all of the different pieces. I think one of the other things that we’ll get to later on today is talking about that collaboration, and how imperative that other stakeholders and other community partners come in to wrap around the individuals that we’re working with as much as we provide. When we look at things comprehensively, we understand there are things that we can support, and then there’s things we need others to help us with, because to carry all of these other challenges that come with the one individual and their story, we need other champions to help support us, to really help the individual thrive. Sandra Morgan 13:42 Okay, that’s so significant, because when I’m sitting in my office, I have a student here who has really high anxiety levels, isn’t able to go to class, some of those things. I’m looking at, how do I fix the situation right now? When I learn that they are not in a living situation that is safe and secure through no fault of their own, they are exposed to substance use, they’re exposed to violence, they are living in compromising housing where sleep is not easy. I mean, can you imagine trying to sleep when people are coming and going and you don’t know who the people are, and those are some of the situations that our students have. So I’m teaching my student a nice breathing exercise. Well, that doesn’t help them in the middle of the night, when they feel so afraid and unsafe. So we have to have partners. You mentioned restorative practice practitioner in the school. Let’s talk about restorative practice. Is this another phrase we need to define and figure out how to measure? I think I’m going to keep hitting on this idea, we can’t manage what we don’t measure. That’s an old, old adage. We need to understand what we’re measuring, but we have to have a way to do more than guess. We have to have a way to do more than be positive, optimistic, and carry this aspiration. We have to actually have some structure for what that’s going to look like, Madeline Rodriguez 15:54 Absolutely. So restorative practices comes from a framework of restorative justice work, and it comes from the social sciences that really focuses on three main goals. And those goals include repairing relationships, building community, and helping shift mindsets by building leaders. It is a practice, and as we receive training on restorative practice, we are extremely grateful for the International Institute of Restorative Practices that does a phenomenal job in trainings nationwide, actually, to support individuals and understanding the fundamentals of what Is restorative practices, and how do we integrate this. Understanding that even previous generations, and even indigenous cultures showed how imperative it was to form a circle, to come together as a community, to share with one another, to maintain positive relationships, because it meant survival for that community, in those indigenous times. We have fallen apart as a society, as a community, by not being connected. Going back to even that first question that we talked about, the importance of standing with restorative practices allows us to form intentional moments with individuals, to be seen, to be heard, to be felt, to be reminded that they’re cared for. There’s something really profound with that consistency, that consistent touch point. I know that in other conversations, we’ve talked about the importance, especially with youth and individuals who are experiencing trauma, having that consistent touch point. And so as a practice, even at Project Kinship, whether we’re in a staff meeting, an interview, or a circle, we always start our meetings with our name, how we’re feeling, and then a question of getting to know you, in honor of the intention of helping individuals be able to verbalize what they’re bringing with them. But also, we have a great mentor and friend, his name is Reginald Washington, and he is the founder and CEO of Project AWARE in San Diego. Now he was a 16 year old facing a life sentence, and at his time it was in an adult facility, and he was in his four by four cell. He shares with us that even in that cell, he was still full of all the rage and anger that had led him there in the first place, and as he started to do his own internal work, he realized that in all of his journey, there was a lot of pain and no safe adult had ever stopped to ask him how he felt or what was happening. He talks about restorative practices as well, and leads with how important it is to help young people, individuals, to verbalize and have safe spaces to verbalize how they’re feeling. What restorative practices guides us to doing is creating spaces, building healthy relationships, enhancing awareness and education, promoting accountability and empowerment. So if I caused harm, I need to take responsibility for that and I need to repair with the individual whom I’ve caused harm to, providing support networks, addressing underlying issues, and really encouraging positive identity and purpose. Sandra Morgan 19:34 I can’t help it, but I just keep going back to my identity as a pediatric nurse. Alot of the problems that children have when there’s no strong attachment is, and when we think about attachment theory, I think the most important aspect of attachment theory for people generally to know is that when a baby cries, someone comes and relieves whatever the situation is. Startling, a wet diaper, hunger, whatever somebody comes. When a child is raised in a situation where no one comes, then there is no relief from whatever the distress was. What you’re talking about now with restorative practices, actually looks like building a new pathway that someone is coming. When you said consistent, I am like, okay, so this is how we build attachment when it didn’t get built when it was supposed to get built. It is possible. Madeline Rodriguez 20:57 It’s possible, it’s absolutely possible. Dr. Bruce Duncan Perry’s work, he leads the Neuro-Sequential Model of Therapeutics. I truly appreciate his breakdown of the different regions of the brain and what is literally happening in child and adolescent brain development, and how that ties with why it’s so critical to help young people, and even adults who didn’t have that, form new neurological pathways to heal and provide opportunities for them to respond versus react. Because from very early on, from infancy until they say age 25 is when our brain stops developing, when that’s happening, we’re absolutely operating from a higher survival state from infancy, and then the executive functioning is that lasts to grow. So if we’re looking at things and if individuals are constantly in a survival state, then that executive functioning is stunted in a way, if trauma, adversity, challenges, are exposed to that child, to that developing brain, an individual. Restorative practice is format, is a tool that allows us to stop, regulate, relate, so that these young people can then reason. And this follows that neuro sequential model that Dr. Bruce Duncan Perry talks about. How am I going to expect a young person, an adult that’s distressed reason if their behaviors and how they’re presenting, what their body is telling me is they are in a survival state and they are reacting. I need to first be still, help them regulate, relate. I’m making eye contact, I’m a safe adult here with you, I’m a safe person with you. Then we can sit and get to that reasoning when we’re thinking, and talking, and processing, what just happened, what was the trigger? Help me understand, and how do we move forward? That follows the 3 E’s of restorative practices as well. It talks about we would need to engage, we need to explain, and then we need to set an expectation, so past, present, future. Sandra Morgan 21:52 And you do this like once a quarter with a kiddo? Madeline Rodriguez 23:29 The circles? Sandra Morgan 23:31 Yeah. Madeline Rodriguez 23:31 So currently, with our youth transformation program, we’re actually doing circles every day. We have 14 units that we are in, and every unit gets a circle at least once a week. In our schools program, we’re in 39 campuses now, six different school districts. Some of our RP staff have circles running weekly. Some of them, again, may have it every other week, so depending on the climate, they’re really accurately attuning with their youth and what their needs are. Absolutely, we have circles running every week. And in our adult programs, we have circles almost every other day as well. Sandra Morgan 24:19 I think that was my point in asking that question, this requires frequency. You can’t go to the gym once every quarter, every 90 days, and expect to build muscle. You have to go regularly. Madeline Rodriguez 24:34 Yes. Sandra Morgan 24:35 And that lack of attachment that is so critical to development, but it’s not going to be a one time shot. It’s going to take repetition to grow those new neurons. I love that our brain is plastic, and in the show notes we’ll add links to Dr. Anne Lights’ interviews, because I know there are people who are listening to this and they work in populations where there is violence, and gangs, and incarceration, and they’ve said to me, “Oh, Dr Morgan, you just have so much hope.” It’s like, no, I don’t think I’m unreasonable. I really believe that we are designed to heal. Just like if you get a wound, it begins to heal. It’s going leave a scar, but you’re designed to heal physically, and you are designed to heal mentally, emotionally, and this is going to take time, though. You don’t have a wound, and tomorrow you go to the doctor, they sew it up, you still have to go through the healing process. I love Dr. Anne Light, in one interview, told us that your body, which includes your brain, produces 1 billion new cells every day. Maddie, your body produces 1 billion, with a B. Madeline Rodriguez 26:17 With a B. Sandra Morgan 26:18 Yes, so we are not stuck with what we’ve got. Madeline Rodriguez 26:22 We’re not. Sandra Morgan 26:23 We can change, we can grow. So, all right, I’m going ask you another question, although you look poised. I love doing in-studio interviews instead of online, you look poised to tell me something, really wise. Madeline Rodriguez 26:38 I was going to mention when you were mentioning individuals, I don’t know. They’ve maybe given up on individuals. They’ve lost hope because a certain individual is more challenging, or appears to have more challenges than others. It’s important to remember that when humans are in a need state, there’s a priority in helping them discover what is their need. We just finished a training with the Alternatives to Violence Project team, and they have some fundamentals, and I’m going to read some of their priorities in their circle of transforming power. Here they have listed you always want to expect the best, think before reacting, ask for a non-violent path, caring for others, and respect for self. We were going through this needs list. When a need is not met, then what is the emotion that’s paired with that? We talk about cognitive behavioral therapy, which asks us to look at how our thoughts impact how we feel, and how we feel impacts how we behave, and looking at that sequence of consequences that result, and helping individuals look at that part. So if I can help individuals change that narrative, oh my gosh. What is wrong with this person, to what happened? Help me understand, then we can get to the root of what’s the need? What is happening internally, at the root for this individual? And if we can shift our approach to say, “I can see that you’re frustrated, I can see this is not working. Help me understand what that need is, because I can see that there’s something and we need to get to that root.” When we do that, then we help stabilize individuals, where they’re feeling safe, they’re feeling secure, and then we see progress. Sandra Morgan 26:55 Another really important aspect of this is the role of the community. I mean, they can’t live at Project Kinship. They have to go out, they have to work, go to school, services that are required because of their mental health that are challenging. How do we engage, and I’m thinking like I’m part of Project Kinship. Madeline Rodriguez 29:19 You are. Sandra Morgan 29:21 How do we engage the community? Okay, I’m back to night shift in the hospital in pediatrics. I have a baby that has been admitted for pneumonia three times this winter already, and every time, I spend a lot of time with mom, who is probably someone who needed to go to Project Kinship. I know that my kiddo is not going to be okay unless I engage with her and give her the tools she needs. But my baby keeps coming back, so I don’t know how I can change things. And the third time when it’s in ER, middle of the night, and her cap says it all. It says, “Party till you puke,” and I know that if the culture, the environment I’m discharging this baby to isn’t supporting all the therapy and care I’ve delivered, I’m not going to be successful. So give me some tips on how Project Kinship engages community collaboration, cultural humility. Tell me what to do please. Madeline Rodriguez 30:49 You know, it’s interesting that you have that example. One of the things that we’ve learned from Father Greg and even Steve, Kim, our founder, they’ll always highlight this notion of serving and not saving. Because we often might feel obliged or responsible to save a life, to save this person, but as you mentioned, we can’t go home with community members, we can’t be with them 24/7. So we have to trust that, as Maya Angelou would say, “People forget what you did for them, but they’ll never forget how you made them feel.” The hope is that what we’ve provided and how we have made them feel in that moment will stay with them, so that one, when they go out into the community, back to their daily lives, and they’re doing all their other responsibilities, that they know there’s a safe place they can always come back to if there’s a challenge or there’s a disruption in the plan that maybe they have created with us, for themselves. When we talk about partnerships and collaboration, we’ve shifted our language from ‘warm handoffs’ to ‘live handoffs.’ The reason for that is for a lot of individuals, if we call and say, “Hey, we’ve got an appointment set up for you at this place and they’re going to take care of you.” Chances are, they might not find their way there, or chances are, maybe they make their way there but have a lot of anxiety or don’t feel comfortable, and end up leaving or not following through. But when we go with, some of our community members that say, “I don’t know, let’s go with you. Let’s make sure you get to that appointment. Let’s make sure we’re also consulting and collaborating with that other community partner so that you feel safe and welcome there too.” That increases our success rate with them following through, and then that collaboration with that other community partner enhances our work and ensures that continuity and consistency of care. I’m reminded of the story of the forest and how the forest, I learned recently and it was so beautiful, that in the center of a particular forest there’s this circle of trees. They call them the elder trees, or the motherhood trees, and these trees roots are the deepest and most expanse in the forest, and they end up creating this interconnected system of roots. I said, ‘Oh, my goodness, Lord of the Rings, had it right. These trees are talking to each other.’ Sandra Morgan 33:44 That’s right. Madeline Rodriguez 33:46 And they send signals. These linchpin trees are responsible for sending signals, or receiving signals when one, another tree in the forest is sick, and they send nutrients to help nurture that tree. If there’s a new sapling growing, they’ll send nutrients to the new sapling to help it grow. And I said, ‘How fascinating that in nature itself, nature is showing us the importance of a community that is interconnected.’ Dr. Daniel Siegel, I have to give him credit in his phenomenal work, he has a book called Intraconnected. He talks about the science of me+we=mui. He says the self cannot be healthy unless I am also thinking of the other and taking care of those around me, because that means it enhances my wellness. Again, going back to restorative practices, it’s this fundamental principle that humans are hardwired to be connected. We receive hormones in proximity when we’re with each other that enhance and reduce cortisol. Hugs, I’m a believer in hugs. I prescribe hugs all the time. Sandra Morgan 34:57 Yes. Madeline Rodriguez 34:58 We need 12 hugs a day! Sandra Morgan 35:01 Twelve? Madeline Rodriguez 35:01 Twelve for optimal living, and the science is that we have the vagus nerve. When we hug and embrace each other, heart to heart, it stimulates that vagus nerve, and it actually releases oxytocin, which is that hormone that allows us to feel connected, and it also reduces stress. How beautiful is that? So there are these fundamentals of human connection, and I say all that to highlight again, yes, we do a great job at Project Kinship, and we are so grateful for the Dr. Morgan’s. We’re so grateful for Vanguard, we’re so grateful for all of these beacons of community partners that allow us to work together to optimize the whole person, care for the individuals that are coming through our doors. Sandra Morgan 35:56 I want to kind of land back at the beginning of how I see a child. For me, an 18, 19, 20 year old still looks like a child to me, and wondering what happened that your sense of safety and security didn’t develop that attachment. Now listening to you, and this intervention of connection, someone sees me, someone is responding, it is going to take a while to believe that, to actually grow the neurons so that your response is in the context of ‘someone’s coming.’ If my car breaks down, I know someone’s coming. I’ve got a wonderful husband, two daughters, someone will come. I’ve got AAA. If you have nothing, and your whole life no one has come, it’s going to take a long time to trust and we cannot step in and say, “Well look, I’ve got this, this and this, choose that, and we’re done.” It’s a commitment to relationship, Madeline Rodriguez 37:18 Absolutely, and as you said that I thought of a gentleman, may he rest in peace. We actually had a funeral recently for him, he was involved in a tragic car accident, thank you. This gentleman had worked with us for a while, he was a middle aged adult, and one of the things that he would say when he would come to the office, I always greet everyone, I would say, “Good morning. I’m so glad to see you. I’m so proud of you.” He would look at me and he would say, “Maddie, why are you so nice to me? I’m not a good person. I’ve done some really bad things in my life,” and I would look him in his eyes, and I’d give him a hug. I said, “Because you are worthy. Because you are doing the best you can, and you’re stepping into your purpose, and it’s important for you to know that you are worthy, that you are loved, that you are cared for, and there’s people that believe in you.” And he would say, “Thank you,” he’s like, “I haven’t had that very much in my life.” If he were here to tell his story, even though he was, again, being middle aged, his childhood was wrought of so much trauma, so much pain that he was still carrying with him as an adult. He was giving an opportunity for himself to work through finally, and he was always so grateful for the progress and for the healing that he was able to receive with the incredible work of the entire team and other community partners that wrapped around this individual. I’m reminded again, as much as we’re there to stand with people, we’re constantly reminded and gifted with that opportunity to also receive reminders of the importance of connection, the importance of compassion and love, and connectedness. Yes, we have these fancy strategies and evidence-based practices that we abide by, but at the principal foundation, if we do not start with just stopping and seeing people, then we’re doing it wrong. Sandra Morgan 39:28 This week, my good friend Dick Foth was on campus, and he said there are two kinds of people in this world. There are people who say, “Here I am,” and there are people who say, “Ah, there you are.” Maddie Rodriguez, you are a ‘there you are’ person, and I’m so grateful for you. Madeline Rodriguez 39:52 And so are you. Sandra Morgan 39:54 I wish we had more time. I just love this conversation. Okay, tell us, how do we connect with Project Kinship? Madeline Rodriguez 40:03 Yes. So we are very active on our social media. On Instagram, if you follow @projectkinship, you’ll find us, and we’re very lively on our social media there. Facebook, just projectkinship, LinkedIn projectkinship, or you can go to our website projectkinship.org. If you’d like to learn more about our programs and services they’re listed there. If you have a young person that might be in one of our school sites and you feel like you would like to have them refered to one of our staff, or if you have a young person that happens to be on probation or in juvenile custody, or an adult, an adult that has been formally incarcerated, all of that referral information can be found on our website. There’s a smart link, it’s just one smart link. You put in the information and it’ll help you navigate with putting in the appropriate information to get to the right program and service, and our team will do the rest. Sandra Morgan 41:06 Wow okay, so we’re going to put links to the things you’ve talked about here in our show notes. I am just so grateful that you came today, and I want to assure our listeners that you will be back. Project Kinship has been part of Ensure Justice, partnering with us for years, and you’ll be back in March, right? Madeline Rodriguez 41:31 Yes, absolutely, if you’ll have me. Sandra Morgan 41:33 Oh, thank you. All right. Well, listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking.org to find the resources we’ve talked about here. If you haven’t visited the site before, take time and become a subscriber. I want to grow our podcast, so what I’d like to start asking you to do is, when you meet someone and you think, ‘Oh, I heard that on a podcast, invite them to be a subscriber.’ You can find us on Facebook and LinkedIn at endinghumantrafficking and of course, we’re going to be back in two weeks for our next conversation. Thank you so much, Maddie for being here. Madeline Rodriguez 42:28 Thank you, Dr. Morgan for having me. It was a pleasure.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Dr. Harriet Hill as the two discuss the power of art as a therapeutic tool for healing trauma. Dr. Harriet Hill Dr. Harriet Hill was born to Dutch parents in Los Angeles. Her art is a unique fusion of her Dutch Heritage and Africa’s vibrant colors, where she lived for 18 years. For over 20 years, she has worked globally with survivors of war and violence, using the power of art to unblock emotions and facilitate healing. Those who experience her art are brought joy. Now, Dr. Harriet Hill advocates creativity as a tool to enhance perosnal flourishing. Key Points Art serves as a therapeutic tool for healing trauma, particularly in communities affected by war and violence as it has the ability to help individuals express emotions that may be difficult to articulate verbally. It is important that ordinary people have access to trauma healing exercises and resources, especially in communities with limited mental health professionals. Dr. Harriet Hill’s work includes development of materials that allow non-professionals to facilitate healing through art. Dr. Harriet Hill emphasizes that experiencing beauty, especially in nature or art, is essential for mental health and nourishment of the soul. Engaging with beauty is not a luxury but a necessary part of self-care and overall well-being. While individuals have different cultural backgrounds, the experience of suffering and the need for expression through art are universal. Art transcends language barriers, allowing for shared healing experiences across cultures. Resources 325: The Cost of Burnout, with Dr. Alexis Kennedy Healing Invisible Wounds by Richard F. Mollica www.harrietspaintings.com Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #328: The Intersection of Art and Healing in the Brain, with Dr. Harriet Hill. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Dr. Harriet Hill. Dr. Hill’s art is a unique fusion of her Dutch heritage and Africa’s vibrant colors, it brings joy to those who experience it. For over 20 years, she has worked globally with survivors of war and violence, using the power of art to unblock emotions and facilitate healing. She now advocates creativity as a tool to enhance personal flourishing. Welcome to the podcast, Harriet, Dr. Harriet Hill 1:36 Thank you, Sandie. Thank you. Sandra Morgan 1:38 When I first met you, Harriet, you were introducing me to materials on trauma that were designed to use with children, with families, with people outside the clinical arena. I was so impressed with how accessible you made brain healing to every person, and it wasn’t just something locked away in a clinical textbook that you could use for weightlifting. Tell us a little bit about your current work. Dr. Harriet Hill 2:23 Okay, my current work. I have been working full time as an artist, painting for the last four years now. I had always painted a bit and used art in life, and in the trauma healing work I was involved in. But in the last four years, I’ve been painting full time and having a ball. I worked in minority languages for most of my career, in verbal communication, how we get an idea from one person to the other, through words. I’m very interested and excited to have time to explore how we communicate through visual images, because there’s similarities and differences, and I’m liking it a lot. Sandra Morgan 3:13 Well, just for our listeners, I subscribe to Harriet’s newsletter and it pops up in my inbox, and I open it, and there is a blaze of color, and I can feel my response lifting. The more I thought about that, I thought, ‘I need to have her come on the podcast.’ A couple of weeks ago, we talked about burnout, and we talked about ways to avoid it, and why it’s so important. But how do we start building in practices that maybe we haven’t used before? Instead of being cautionary about things, ‘don’t do this, don’t do that,’ how can we build in positivity and maybe even a newsletter from Harriet Hill once in a while? Harriet, one of the things that I want to understand better is how your focus on the intersection of art and mental health can be used as a therapeutic tool to aid in healing the brain. Talk to us about that. Speaker 1 4:35 Yeah. I lived for 18 years in Africa, and then was in and out of Africa for another 15 or so, and came in contact with people traumatized by war. I was actually working in language development, in Bible translation, but whole communities were rendered dysfunctional by the violence of war and the trauma they’d experienced. With some other colleagues and mental health professionals, we put together some materials that could be used by ordinary people in communities to at least help with mental health, because in many places in the world, there’s very few or no mental health professionals. So in countries that have war and trauma, there may be one or two psychiatrists in the entire country, at the time, this was in the 90s and early 2000s. We developed materials to help people with trauma, and then about four or five years in, we decided to try an art exercise, and I was appointed as the one to introduce it. I was with a room full of men, primarily men, some women, but primarily men in Ghana, and I was to ask them to do an art exercise, to express their pain through their drawing. We had clay, and markers, and paper. So I first did it myself to see what it would be like, and shared it with the staff, like what happens? How does this work? And then I shared it with the room, and I had never seen men in Africa, I’d lived in Africa a long time by that time, and I’ve never seen them really drawing, that was something kids did. It was with a bit of fear and trembling that we introduced this exercise to these people straight out of war zones. They took to it like it was their native language. We were very cautious about would you want to share this? You can, if you would like to share it with your small groups. They did it in small groups, and then they had some time to draw or do stuff with clay, and then if they wanted to, they could share it. They all wanted to share. They shared so long they missed dinner. We were at a conference center, and they helped one another to see what was going on and talk about what they had experienced. Because sometimes when we’ve experienced trauma, your brain goes offline, and your frontal lobe, your ‘thinking brain’ goes offline, and that’s the part that has the language. This emotional impact goes in and you don’t even have words for it. You can’t express it in words, it didn’t go in in words, your thinking brain was offline. Sometimes, your ‘feeling brain’ can let that out through art, and then you can look at it and say, “Oh, that’s how I feel. I didn’t know.” Being able to see it and put it into words, and talk about it, gives you a sense of control, a sense of agency, a sense of ‘I can handle this.’ It’s not just this vague, icky feeling, it’s sadness, it’s anger, it’s bitterness, it’s whatever feeling you might have expressed. That’s where I got started with it. I am not a psychologist. I love working with psychologists and psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals, but what we did was especially for ordinary people in communities, whether they be churches or other communities, we worked a lot with churches, just what ordinary people can do to heal from trauma. It was amazing. That, I was involved in for about 20 years, and that ministry continues. I just got a message from a colleague in Australia, in Darwin, who is working with women, Aboriginal women who are incarcerated, and they’re doing art with clay and with drawing, and finding the same experience. I mean, it is so basic, it’s amazing how helpful it can be and how universal it is. Because these men in Africa, grown men, took to it like it was their natural language, found it extremely helpful. Because sometimes words fail us. Sandra Morgan 8:56 Words fail us. Let’s go back to what you said about why they didn’t have language to express. We really promote talk therapy a lot, and often realize that there are no words to express. Explain that a little bit more, how that process happens with the prefrontal cortex. Dr. Harriet Hill 9:29 I just did a skit with adults and with kids here in Pennsylvania, on our brain. It was sort of like that movie Inside Out, where you don’t see the main character, you see inside his brain. We had a thinking brain, we’re just using ordinary language. You could call it prefrontal lobe, etc., but we just call it our thinking brain, our feeling brain, and our reflex brain. The thinking brain is analytical and it uses language, and when it is overwhelmed by horror, by trauma, it goes offline, nothing goes in. Those experiences enter into you on an emotional level, but you might have struggled to put them into words, unspeakable horror. It was unspeakable, you don’t have words. Those things can just be a nebulous force inside of you, and you don’t understand it, and they come back in unexpected times. Because your thinking brain is chronological, it puts everything away in words, in your memory labeled with words and in a chronological order. That’s great, but when your thinking brain goes offline, that trauma goes in, and it’s not put in order. Things are just popping up, here, there ,and everywhere. You can’t make sense of it, and that’s where the art can help, because you are not thinking, you’re just making something, you’re making marks, you’re shaping clay. It can be dance, it can be song, it can be any sort of art. I’m more involved in the visual arts, but those things can come out. And then, your thinking brain can look at it and say, “Oh yeah, that’s how I feel,” and then you can start talking about it a little more. But there are things that are very hard to get out with words, because they weren’t put in with words. They didn’t enter you with words. Sandra Morgan 11:30 This idea, it didn’t come in in words, then there’s no words to come out as a result. Let’s hear the rest of the skit, what did they do? Speaker 1 11:46 Well, this was not a war skit. This was just a skit of an ordinary guy who was stressed, and then he saw a shooting, there was blood everywhere. He didn’t get hurt, but he was traumatized by that, and then he also took an art class, and as he drew, he was able to express his pain. We had the thinking brain, the feeling brain, the reflex brain, which just keeps all of your hearts and lungs and everything functioning, and that takes over with freeze, fight, flight when there’s no time for feelings or thinking, you just got to get out of danger. We had good chemicals, and we have good words for those. What are they? Endorphins and all of those wonderful chemicals that are released, and there’s a whole field of study called neuroesthetics, that when we see art or make art, those good chemicals are released, and our brain starts to feel better, and over time, we can really heal from those bad feelings, those stress chemicals. We have good chemicals, and then we have stress chemicals, so we had people acting out these parts. The stress chemicals are good when there is a crisis, they get you out of danger, adrenaline, etc., but sometimes they are triggered when there is no danger. There’s a loud noise like the sound of the gun being shot, but it really was just a drawer slamming shut. But that can release those stress chemicals in the same way as an actual trauma. The other thing that the stress chemicals can do that’s not healthy is they can just stay on. I think in your earlier podcast, talked about the pedal going down and getting stuck, and that can just wear out your body really quickly. So the skit that we did was trying to see how our brains work, how we respond to art, it does make us feel better. It releases the chemicals, and this is proven by a very careful scientific study, and how it can also help us express in visual form what we may not be able to express in words. I think of the New Mexico artist with her flowers, Georgia, O’Keeffe. She said, “If I could have said it in words, I would have,” and that was just about art and beautiful things she drew. But it also works for trauma. If we can say things in the talk therapy and get to the bottom of it, great, but there are things we can’t express in words. The idea is, if we can use some sort of artistic expression to get those things out and see them, then we can bring our thinking brain around it and say, “Okay, now let’s integrate this so that we have one story and we’re not in bits, not divided into strange things happening, flashbacks, triggered, etc.” Sandra Morgan 14:50 My response to following your art and then beginning to see how you integrated healing the brain in your public presentations of your art, in gallery presentations. I don’t know art world language, but I started really being interested in that, and I’m curious, because of our listeners, we’re predominantly working in the area of anti human trafficking and aftercare for trafficking victims. So how do you see art therapy as a way of healing brains that have experienced the continual assault on dignity and personal agency? Speaker 1 15:42 I see it in two ways. One is even early in Boston, Dr. Mollica published his book, which was “Healing Invisible Wounds,” I don’t know if you’ve read that, Richard Mollica, but he found with refugees, they need beauty. They need art. They need to be in beautiful places that are ordered and not chaotic, and not destructive. Beauty releases good things in us, and if we release those good chemicals often enough, we actually began to feel better in a in a more permanent way. It’s not like you’re going to look at something beautiful, a beautiful painting or something that calls you and be changed instantly, but little by little, we begin to get a handle on, we begin to have more and more of an experience of feeling good inside and remembering what that felt like. Beauty is really important, beauty and order, not chaos and destruction. The second way, I think, is when we are engaged in art, it engages us. We don’t have to be artists. We don’t have to be professional artists, even. Any class or any group that I’ve been in where people are making things, making art especially, there is a hush that falls over the room. People get so engrossed and so present, and they’re able to put things out and look at it and say, “Wow.” That experience also can help trauma victims, and the trauma that you’re talking about with trafficking, you have to tell your story lots. You have to tell it over and over again, it’s not just a one time thing. The art may give you some tools to express things you don’t even know are inside of you, until it comes out, and you talk about it and look at it and say, “Wow.” When I do art, what’s coming out of me a lot is happiness, joy, beauty, celebration, and it makes me feel happier actually. I just feel that, that’s what comes out. It’s very interesting. Every person has a story, every person’s art will look different. You can tell if you’re in a group, who did what without them signing it. Sandra Morgan 18:07 As I’m listening to you, I’m in my mind, because my prefrontal cortex is fully engaged in this conversation, I’m processing this, and I’m starting to analyze and prioritize where, if I’m making a list of things for my budget and taking care of victims, making sure we have food and shelter right up there, the beauty piece, the flowers, the art, that’s if we have resources “left over.” Can you convince me that I have to do beauty on my budget, just like I do food? Is it that level? Speaker 1 18:53 Yeah, I worked with Diane Langberg, who’s a psychologist who’s worked with trauma victims her entire life. She says you have to get out and just be in a beautiful space, whatever that is for you. Often it’s outdoor spaces, it depends what people consider beautiful, but it nourishes your soul. Beauty is nourishing and we need it. It gives us hope, it’s not an extra. I don’t think so. I would say art can help us through the trauma, but it also can help us flourish in normal life. I mean, you don’t have to be carrying around a lot of trauma to benefit, because we can all improve and become more alive. I think in America, we feel like, “On our budget we can’t afford time for art. We can’t afford art. Let’s just keep it all to the absolute essentials,” and I would say no, art is an essential for well being, for really being well, which I think is what we’re all after anyway. Not having more stuff, we’re after being well. Sandra Morgan 19:56 I think I started putting two and two together after interviewing Dr. Alexis Kennedy about burnout, and realized that every time I opened your newsletter, I was a little lighter for the day. The aspect of vicarious trauma in this line of work is something that caregivers and activists, abolitionists, advocates, we often do not do that well, and this is such a call to engage beauty as a way of keeping our brain healthy, just like we would eat our greens and make sure we get enough vitamin C, etc., all of that. Speaker 1 20:52 Exactly, it’s part of a self care diet, really. It is as important as your green vegetables. Sandra Morgan 20:57 That’s it. Now we’re going to tell everybody, “Sorry, I’ve got to go to my art class, and it’s just like eating my broccoli.” All right, so what are some challenges that are pretty unique to using art therapy? I would start with guessing that it’s not part of the program because of budget. Speaker 1 21:29 You can have an elaborate art program if you have the resources, but people are doing art exercises with children and adults, teens, with nothing but a pencil and a piece of paper. If you can have markers with color, that really helps. But one of the most compelling art exercises I did was with a guy who had a folded piece of paper, he unfolded it and a blue pen, and it was an incredible experience. I don’t think budget is necessarily a barrier. In the trauma healing work we did around the world, we’re very committed to making it affordable to local communities, because otherwise it’s not sustainable. So you don’t need a kiln, you don’t need a lot of paint. You can do it simply, if that’s what is appropriate for you. Of course you can do all the bells and whistles too. Sandra Morgan 22:27 Yeah. Dr. Harriet Hill 22:27 We even have children’s camps where it goes on for a week, and some places are able to work with the kids for a very minimal budget. Sandra Morgan 22:37 The other thing that I observed in your work is the cultural diversity, and maybe I could even use the term relevance. How do you build that into the healing aspect? Speaker 1 22:54 Well, we all are different as individuals, we’re different culturally, but we’re all the same in some ways as well. The experience of suffering and expressing our pain is pretty universal. We might do it with different sorts of designs, but it gets out there. I have found it to be more of a universal kind of experience, rather than being distinctive by cultures like here, you have to do it this way, there, you have to do it that way. I mean, there are some things like that, who could be in a small group together, for example, how the group is conducted. But the art itself is more universal than language, that’s for sure. When you get to language there, you have a lot of differences. Oh boy. Sandra Morgan 23:42 Oh yeah. Speaker 1 23:47 One of my colleagues and friends, Robin Harris, leads the Center for Excellence in World Arts at Dallas International University. They work more in music than they do in the visual arts, but they also work in visual arts. They have an MA and PhD programs in world arts, so they are actually documenting, studying, identifying all the differences, cultural differences. Music, for example, is a universal language to a certain extent, but then there’s differences in it. I would say the visual arts, I just find there’s a lot of similarity in how this art exercise works. I have not found it to be nearly as different as I expected. Sandra Morgan 24:33 We will make sure to put links to these resources that you’re mentioning, because I’m sure people are going to want to study this more. Can you give us just a little bit more around the role of neuroplasticity in the healing process through art therapy? I think sometimes people get a diagnosis of PTSD, and now they’re in that straight jacket for the rest of their lives. Speaker 1 25:06 Yeah, and you can feel very stuck because things are happening that you don’t feel like you have much control over. I remember one of my colleagues was a genocide survivor from Rwanda, and I remember in the late 90s, she said, “I will never heal from the trauma,” that she experienced during the genocide. She was pregnant, she gave birth to a baby that died right away, she fled. Everything was, as you know the story, it was horrific. I would say in recent years, I have found that she has healed to a great extent. We will always be impacted by any of the experiences we have. So if you have lived through trauma, it’s going to be part of your story, but it’s not going to be the defining part of your story. You can heal little by little, not overnight, but little by little, with these positive experiences, with telling your story over and over again, until you find that light inside of you, until you find your way out of it. But Diane Langberg talks about healing from trauma is the 3 T’s: talk, time, and tears. As long as that trauma is inside you and you have no way of getting it out, it’s going to be in control, pretty much, in ways that you you don’t like. You don’t recognize yourself, “I’m not that kind of person. I don’t blow up, I don’t get angry. I don’t insult people. I don’t do drugs, alcohol. I’m a good person.” You’re acting in ways you don’t even recognize. We do an exercise, we started with adults. We take water bottles and get a bucket, and fill the bucket with water, or the basin with water, and then ask the kids or the adults to try to hold down one bottle. An empty water bottle just filled with air, try to hold that down. Now, another, now, another, now, another, and before long, of course, the bottles are popping out of the water and they can’t control it, and that’s what those emotions are like. They’re in there, and it takes a lot of energy to keep it all down. I mean, I’ve seen people go through horrific experiences and try to minimize it. “Well, it wasn’t as bad as the other person. Well, it’s just part of life,” but actually, those wounds are in there, and they need to come out. They need to come out and get out where you can see them, and work with them. Just by telling the story and finding the hope that is there. What I found is when people feel safe, they want to tell the story because they can’t stop thinking about it, but they don’t want to think about it, but they can’t stop thinking about it. But when they’re safe, they can come out and then get out there, and then they can begin to heal. The tears are, I’ve read different things on tears, but I think they do carry some of the pain away. They’re a good sign, they’re your friend. When you start thinking of something, and people say, “I couldn’t cry, I felt nothing.” Well, when you start crying, it means those feelings, you’re feeling them finally, and they’re coming out, and it’s a good thing. The time, the talk, the tears, and the talk can be around a painting you’ve done or a drawing that you’ve done. It doesn’t have to only be the words initially, but those things reshape your brain, and the more charged it is, the better. In the trauma healing, people remember a 10 minute conversation when someone was really listening to them, and they can remember it like it happened yesterday. I’ve had people bring up things that happened in their childhood. Their sister died, and they talked to somebody about it for the first time, and they remembered, because it was a time when their brain was like recasting, reframing the story into something of beauty. There’s always beauty in the ashes. Sandra Morgan 29:21 I love that. Dr. Harriet Hill 29:22 But it might take you a long time to find them. Sandra Morgan 29:23 I think you really have identified one aspect of moving it from trauma to a controllable memory, not something you have to keep pushing down so that it doesn’t suddenly erupt. This idea that in the healing, you’re left with a scar, so you have a reminder, but you don’t live in that open wound. You’re not constantly caring for it. I love that metaphor, because it shows that we are designed for healing, and I have scars from childhood and some from adulthood that are just reminders that I survived something. I’m going to reframe that. Not, “I went through this, but I got through this,” is my new story. Speaker 1 30:30 Yeah, and you know when the healing is happening, because you talk about it and feel about it in a different way. You don’t have to badmouth people anymore, suddenly you maybe forgive people who hurt you. You can tell when it happens. A wound has to heal from the inside out, I had a granddaughter who had to have surgery as an infant. Her intestines were on the outside of her body, and they had to put them in. So she had a gaping wound across her abdomen, and it was hard to look at. I was like, “Can’t they sew this up?” They said, “Oh no, no, no, no, no. This has to heal from the inside out. Sewing it up, you’re just going to trap all the infection in there. It has to heal from the inside out.” That’s, I think, what we have to do with trauma. It will heal. Our bodies and our minds are meant for healing. The neuroplasticity that you you mentioned, our minds are changing all the time. We can have a hand in that by surrounding ourselves with beauty, by expressing ourselves in some sort of art. It doesn’t have to be visual art, it could be something like cooking, it could be dancing, it could be theater, it could be any of these things, but something where we are expressing ourselves and being creative is like your brussel sprouts. Sandra Morgan 31:55 Oh my gosh. Harriet, what I saw during COVID in my community, is everyone was posting pictures of their latest charcuterie board. They’re showing you how to make little flowers. Instead of clay and markers, they literally are playing with their food, just like when you were 18 months old in your high chair. It feels like we’re designed to be creative, and we want to create opportunity for people to integrate that into their healing process. Speaker 1 32:35 Yeah, and so we’re designed to be creative when we have trauma and other grief, loss, but also in ordinary times, it helps us be alive. It really does help us flourish. Sandra Morgan 32:49 I think your guide in this art experience, you are particularly experienced. When you talked about your granddaughter’s healing from the inside out, and how hard that was to look at it. I have seen victims of trauma who have produced not beautiful, colorful, vibrant pictures. People have said to them, “Oh, don’t draw that.” What would you advise someone supervising an art program? Speaker 1 33:28 Let it out, let it out. All of the ick, just let it out. In Africa, so often it’s pictures of airplanes dropping bombs, people with machetes, villages burning. I mean, really let it out, let it out, let it out. Do not shove it down, it’s not going to dissolve. I mean, there are some things we recover from, just in the normal process. If it’s not too serious, and we’re in a position of feeling resilient, we can heal. But those things that are lurking deep down inside us, and sometimes we have shoved them down for so long we’ve forgotten they’re even there, what life would be like without those things rumbling around deep in the dark, inside of us. It doesn’t have to be beautiful, what might come out is pain, but under that pain, there might be something really joyful that’s being trapped. What happens when you have trauma is, you want to avoid feeling the pain because it hurts so bad, trauma or grief, but when you avoid feeling the pain, you also avoid feeling happy emotions, and so you just become pretty much numb to any emotion, very flat emotionally. You’re not feeling the pain, but you’re not feeling happiness either. Once you can draw that picture of that horrific scene, great, get it out, that’s wonderful. And maybe now, what will come out after that might be something you never imagined was being held under it. Sandra Morgan 35:07 Harriet, I am going to keep following you. Can you tell our listeners how to find you online? Dr. Harriet Hill 35:14 Yeah, I have a website: wwwharriet’spaintings.com., and the same on Instagram. That’s Harriet’s Paintings, and it’s on Facebook as well. At the website, you can sign up for my newsletter, which I’m so happy to hear that you enjoy it, and I’m so glad that it brightens your day from time to time. Sandra Morgan 35:41 Thank you. Thank you. I’m so grateful that you joined us today, and I’m going to be looking for ways to add just as much beauty as broccoli to my day. Thank you, Harriet. Dr. Harriet Hill 35:58 Yes. Sandra Morgan 35:59 All right. To my listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. That’s where you can find resources that are often mentioned on the show. You can find out about the anti human trafficking certificate, and if you haven’t visited before, it’s a great first place to become a subscriber. And then you’ll get an email with the show notes when a new episode drops. Of course, I’ll be back in two weeks.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Anabel Martinez as the two discuss the challenges of labor trafficking through forced criminality, particularly affecting youth and undocumented individuals. Anabel Martinez Anabel Martinez currently works as a Senior Policy Counsel for the Sunita Jain Anti-Trafficking Initiative at Loyola Law School. She is a committed social justice policy advocacy professional, with over a decade of experience in advocating for marginalized communities through direct legal services and using trauma-informed and culturally responsive practices. Anabel Martinez transitioned to public policy advocacy to seek system changes that are intersectional and inclusive. She’s highly skilled at looking at real-world issues from a nuanced, analytical lens that aids in the development of comprehensive and equitable policies. Main Points Labor trafficking by forced criminality involves individuals being coerced into performing illegal activities as their form of labor. This can include tasks like drug cultivation, shoplifting, or other illegal acts. The labor they are forced to do is illegal according to local laws. Anabel emphasizes the need for better systems to support youth who are trafficked into forced criminality. Many young people in juvenile detention may be victims of LTFC but are not always recognized as such. This misidentification can lead to punitive measures rather than supportive interventions. There are similarities between the experiences of child soldiers and youth involved in gangs or forced into criminal activities. Both groups often join or are coerced into their situations due to a lack of options and are subjected to severe coercion and manipulation. Immigrant youth, particularly those from Latin America or Central America, face heightened risks of being trafficked for criminal activities. There is a need for improved recognition and support systems for these vulnerable youth, who may be caught between the juvenile justice system and immigration proceedings. Effective screening tools for identifying labor trafficking by forced criminality are currently lacking. It’s important to have training and tools for professionals who interact with youth, such as those in juvenile justice and social services, to better identify and support victims of labor trafficking by forced criminality. Resources Sunita Jain Anti-Trafficking Initiative 306: Survivor Voices Leading Change, with Jerome Elam Freedom Network USA Unaccompanied Refugee Minors Program California Department of Social Services Covenant House 2023 Impact Report 259: Which Screening Tool Should I Use?, with Dr. Corey Rood 315: Keeping Our Children Safe Online, with Susan Kennedy NCMEC National Human Trafficking Hotline Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #327: Labor Trafficking and Forced Criminality. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so glad to have Anabel Martinez with us today. She currently works as a Senior Policy Counsel for the Sunita Jain Anti-Trafficking Initiative at Loyola Law School. She is a committed social justice policy advocacy professional, with over a decade of experience in advocating for marginalized communities through direct legal services and using trauma-informed and culturally responsive practices. She transitioned to public policy advocacy to seek system changes that are intersectional and inclusive. She’s highly skilled at looking at real-world issues from a nuanced, analytical lens that aids in the development of comprehensive and equitable policies. So Anabel, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. Anabel Martinez 1:51 Thank you so much for having me. I’m really happy to be here with you today. Sandra Morgan 1:54 Well before we dive in, I have a personal question, because your bio says that you transitioned to public policy advocacy. Can you tell me a little bit about how and why you have done that? Anabel Martinez 2:10 Sure. I feel like in some ways, as a direct client, when I was doing direct client services within the legal context, or whether that be social service, you’re always doing a little bit of policy advocacy in the sense that you’re letting your supervisors or your co-workers know, “Hey, this is a policy or an issue that doesn’t work for my clients or is causing me issues.” I noticed, as I was doing my work, that the people making policies were not folk who have experience providing direct client services, so oftentimes there’s policies are created with good intentions, but if you don’t have that understanding of how it looks on the ground or how that will be carried out, then you later on, you have to come back and fix those issues. So I was like, okay, why isn’t someone like me, who has this experience, providing this direct client service? Also, the person making the policy? Because then, I’ll be able to see those issues before they arise and be able to hopefully work around them or plan around them. It’s not possible to identify all the issues, but I do think we need more folks who have their client service experience, and be part of the people who are making the policies Sandra Morgan 3:14 I love that. It’s so important for us to begin to figure out how to get further upstream in designing solutions. Anabel Martinez 3:23 Yes. Unfortunately, sometimes we know nonprofits have limits on how much policy they can engage in, which is a lot of the folks providing those direct client services, work with the nonprofits. I’m very lucky to have found a job where I’m allowed to do that full time, which is very rare to find a job that’s full time policy. Sandra Morgan 3:39 Well, let’s dive into our topic. What is labor trafficking by forced criminality? We even have an acronym, LTFC. Can you explain what that is? Anabel Martinez 3:53 Essentially, within human trafficking we have sex trafficking, we have labor trafficking, and labor trafficking by forced criminality essentially means that the labor that is being asked of the person to do, or the person is being coerced to do, is an illegal activity. Whether that be cultivating, transporting drugs, deaths, shoplifting, sometimes even being the person who recruits people into sex trafficking, or being the person who arranges the dates for the person who’s being sex trafficked. That is what it is, the labor is the illegal activity they’re being asked to do. Sandra Morgan 4:26 Okay, so when they’re given a job, a task, like go shoplift five necklaces or recruit somebody to be part of a brothel, those are considered labor trafficking examples? Anabel Martinez 4:47 Yes, and it’s within the context off what is illegal within the state and city that you’re in, right? If that’s considered an illegal activity, then yes. For example, herein California it’s legal to cultivate, and grow marijuanaarijuana and sell marijuana.marijuana. But Then there’s also illegal farms that are doing that, and then they’re recruiting people into labor trafficking for that specifically. That’shat’s also another form of labor trafficking byby forced criminality becausecause they’re working at an illegal marijuana farm, doing the cultivating. Thehe growing, that might be considered legal if it was in a form that was actually permitted to do that work, if that makes sense. Sandra Morgan 5:25 For our listeners, I want you to remember the interview in episode #306 with Jerome as he explained during his exploitation, first in commercial sexual exploitation of a child, he was very young, and then as he was older, he was required to do certain things, drop products in places, collect money, whatever. And when he was arrested, picked up, and put in juvenile detention, he was labeled a delinquent, even though it was all part of the trafficking experience. In your study at Loyola, you have used Los Angeles data. Let’s keep in mind everybody listening in other parts, I think a lot of this is a place where you can begin to ask questions in your area to see if there are parallels. I believe there are a lot of parallels. Let’s look at why you did focus on the youth in Los Angeles. Anabel Martinez 6:41 I wanted to focus, because my policy work is Los Angeles city and county, and so that’s one of the major focuses. Also, right now we do have a movement to essentially close down all the juvenile detention centers, but they’re still open right now. Also because LA itself has done a lot of work to help survivors, youth, survivors of sex trafficking, and being able to provide them with services and identify them, but we have not done as much to also support youth who are experiencing labor trafficking by forced criminality. And we just wanted to bring to light to the county, and people within social services within the county, who are helping CSEC youth that those services that you’re providing to CSEC youth can also be provided to kids who are experiencing labor trafficking by forced criminality. Further, there’s probably a crossover because if a youth does not choose their exploitation, and more than likely than not, they might be experiencing more than one form of exploitation, kind of like you talked about Jerome. They experienced sex trafficking, and then they were being forced to do other criminal acts. That could also happen to other individuals, and maybe they’re not arrested for the sex trafficking, right? Because they’re not supposed to be now. Now in California, there’s a safe harbor law that protects them from being arrested if they’re youth. If they’re engaging in what is perceived as prostitution, they’re automatically seen as a survivor of sex trafficking so they shouldn’t be prosecuted, they should be sent to social services. But if a youth who is being sex trafficked could potentially also be asked to sell drugs and be arrested for that, but is there an assessment being done there, for that youth? And if there’s not, then you’re putting that child into the criminal legal system and sending them down a path that could potentially give more control to their trafficker, in terms of forcing them to do more things. Sandra Morgan 8:37 When we think about our juvenile justice system, as opposed to our criminal justice system, this is very problematic. In many parts of the world, there is not as clear of a division between juvenile and adult, or criminal justice. But here we have that advantage, and there should be another pathway. This re-emphasizes that we have to look further at why is this child, literally under the age of 18, and may be already six foot tall, but has not finished school, many times doesn’t have the same resources, and may have been involved in some kind of gang activity that has increased that vulnerability. One of the things that really drew my attention to your presentation was linking this to child soldiers. We hosted one of the Sudanese children that were child soldiers, for a semester here at Vanguard, and we learned so much about how their forced labor, forced soldiering experience, was built on coercion and force. We glibly say, “There are three elements of human trafficking, force, fraud, and coercion,” but for a child with no resources, in a country at war, so that all the systems that might exist are broken down, then you begin to see the desperation, and nobody argues that. That’s why I loved moving from this focus on youth in forced labor to this parallel. Can you flesh that out a little bit more for me? Anabel Martinez 10:50 Yes, and I also want to touch on one point you said earlier. These are youth who are under 18, under 21, and there’s been many studies done that show that the brain is not fully developed until 26. I think when I did my data, the youngest person in juvenile hall was 13 years old. So how is a 13 year old being held in a juvenile hall without there being any assessment as to what happened? But in terms of the child soldiers, when I started doing my research for my white paper, that’s something that I started to think about. There’s very much a parallel between child soldiers and youth who are involved in gangs. The more that I looked into it, the more I could see those parallels in the sense that, child soldiers are considered a form of child trafficking because the acts required of the child soldier are dangerous, they interfere with their fundamental human rights to education. And if you see the reasons for why a child soldier becomes a child soldier, and why some youth decide to join gangs or are in gangs, they start to look the same, in terms of that they’re looking for a sense of belonging, they’re looking for protection, they live in an area where that might be the only choice, or they didn’t have a choice, it’s either you join or your life is in peril. And then, forcing kids to stay both within an army or in a gang, the same the same tactics are used. Other eople are punished in front of them to instill fear upon them, they’re manipulated, they’re brought in very young. They’re they’re made to feel like that’s their only choice. I think the more you look into those issues, the more you look into the reasons for why that happens, the more you start to see that. I see the US recognizing this outside of our country, but we’re not willing to look inward and see the same dynamics are happening within certain areas of our country, and we really need to start looking at that, from that perspective. Sandra Morgan 12:41 So you mentioned gangs, and we’ve seen a lot of evidence of that in many, many municipalities here in California and in other states. But for youth that are coming across the border, escaping violence and then find themselves here, exposed to further violence, is there a parallel in labor trafficking, forced criminality, and the prevalence of immigrant youth being victims? Anabel Martinez 13:19 I’m part of Freedom Network USA, which is like a lot of different nonprofits or service providers that work with human trafficking survivors. They recently released their, every couple years they aggregate the data of who’s being served, and their service providers have seen an increase in youth who are undocumented seeking out services from them. We are seeing an increase in just undocumented youth in general, needing help because they’re being trafficked. Something that we’re seeing, which right now is anecdotal because we need to collect more data, that’s something we’re always asking for, is data. But there does seem to be an increase of youth who are from Latin America or Central America, being forced to sell drugs, and that being the labor trafficking that they’re being forced to commit. Some people are recognizing it as such, but other people are still not connecting the dots that that’s what’s happening there. Sandra Morgan 14:15 When these youth are picked up, where did they take them? Do they take them to juvenile detention, where do they take them, an what kind of court do they end up in? Anabel Martinez 14:29 Essentially unless there’s an assessment made, yes, that’s where they would end up, is juvenile detention. Potentially, if they have an immigration case open, or if they don’t, that could be the next step, is that they’re then referred to immigration court or immigration proceedings, depending on what the issue is. That’s something that puts them severely in danger of them being sent back to a country that they were fleeing in the first place, because they were probably facing similar threats back in their home country. Sandra Morgan 14:58 Do we see any remedies in the unaccompanied minor resources? Anabel Martinez 15:05 If there’s an uaccompanied minor, essentially, when they get here they should be able to apply for CDSSf if they don’t have a parent or another parent. But in terms of being able to qualify for that, you have to have, when immigration is called, good moral character. You have to show that you’re someone who’s worthy of being allowed to be in this country. So any crimes that you commit sometimes weigh against that. You then have to apply for a waiver to see if they would be willing to forgive whatever it is that is in your criminal record, even if you were never arrested for it, those are crimes that they look into. That’s the risk right there, that maybe they might qualify for this remedy, but then they won’t be able to get that remedy because their trafficking experience was not recognized as trafficking, and they were charged with that instead of it being something like, “Hey, this is actually a victim of labor trafficking by forced criminality, let’s not put them through this criminal legal system that’s going to maybe x them out of this opportunity.” Sandra Morgan 16:07 That’s why vacature and similar movements are so helpful because they were wrongfully charged. I just don’t like using the word charged for a kid, but I don’t know any other way. Anabel Martinez 16:25 There’s also the T-Visa, so they could also apply, essentially, for a T-Visa, it just doesn’t seem to be the way. But again, you also have to be asking for this waiver. I would even take it a step further and say that, I mean for everyone, I think people are more open since we’re already doing it for youth who are survivors of CSEC. We have the safe harbor law in California, where they’re not supposed to be charged for anything related to prostitution, they’re supposed to be recognized as a survivor of trafficking. I would ask that the same Safe Harbor law also be extended for youth who identify as being victims of labor trafficking by forced criminality, because even putting them through that, to the point where they’re where they’re potentially being charged for something they were forced to commit by the person who’s causing them harm or trafficking them, I don’t think should happen, so we should be able to stop them from even entering the system in the first place. Sandra Morgan 17:18 That’s wonderful. I love that. Okay, so let’s shift to another population of really vulnerable youth. On this podcast, we’ve discussed the Covenant House study findings a couple of times back in 2016 and a few different approaches. Let’s talk about labor trafficking, forced criminality, and homeless youth. Anabel Martinez 17:49 Thank you for mentioning the Covenant studies, because they have been super helpful, the 2016 and the 2023, for me in providing data that, like I said, data is always really hard to find, specifically on this topic. We are seeing more and more data coming out, but still, not as many as we have related to sex trafficking or CSEC. I believe the 2016 study showed that of the youth who were experiencing labor trafficking, 81% of those youth were experiencing labor trafficking by forced criminality in the form of being forced to sell drugs. We’re seeing a high percentage of homeless youth who are being labor trafficked, who are experiencing labor trafficking by forced criminality by selling drugs. I think that’s an indicator, ideally, we would be screening all youth who come through the criminal legal system for labor trafficking by forced criminality, but even if that’s not possible or whatnot, at least if you’re seeing a drug crime, or a drug charge, or anything related to that, that raises like, “Hey, maybe this is a youth that I need to look further into and not just automatically label as a criminal or as a delinquent.” Sandra Morgan 18:56 So what kind of screening tools are available? Anabel Martinez 18:59 Right now there are a few that are trying to develop more concise screening tools. I’ll send you some of the links that we have to them, sorry, I can’t remember them off the top of my head. But there is a study being conducted by a researcher from NYU who’s working with public defenders to do a study, to flesh out a study, a research-based screening tool for labor trafficking by forced criminality. I believe it’s adults only so hopefully from that, we’ll be able to get one that’s more youth-specific. It has been hard to find one that we’re able to recommend to people. One of the things we always say is, the simplest thing you can ask a youth when you encounter them when you suspect this is happening, is, is there someone else who’s benefiting from from you doing this? Is there someone else who is getting your money? Is the money, or whatever the benefit of the crime was, is there another third person, a third party who’s benefited from it as well? I think just asking that question in the terms that that youth is going to understand, and when the youth feels ready to talk to you about it, that would open up so much. That whenever people ask us that question, even just that simple question, should be able to give you so much information. Sandra Morgan 20:11 It’s so complicated to create screening tools. We interviewed Dr. Corey Rood here, just about the process and then I talked to people in administration, in juvenile justice and probation in schools. I think these are issues that school counselors and resources, they can all see and identify if they have the tools, but creating those screening tools take time and resources. It’s easier to raise funds to provide direct services because the stories are so compelling, but if we don’t put more value on how to identify, they just keep passing right by us, and their situation gets more and more dire, and then they age out of the opportunity to take advantage of resources. You can tell I’m getting a little passionate about this, so we have to figure out how to identify earlier. How do we maybe just add one question, the one you just gave us, to an existing screening protocol in whatever your department is? In your local youth programs, whether you’re here in the US, or in Europe, or in Africa, or Asia. This is so important for the future generations, that they don’t actually get pretty much disqualified from pursuing the future of their dreams, from education, from becoming entrepreneurs. In another interview we did with Susan Kennedy from NCMEC, we talked about other forms of coercion through sextortion online. And then, “Okay well, if you can’t pay me, then you have to go make this drug delivery,” which falls into this same labor trafficking, forced criminality. Can you talk about what you learned from the Harvard Medical School study? That was fascinating. Anabel Martinez 22:34 Yeah, I think one of the things that stood out to me the most, which I think we already know, but just to have the data, is that over half of the kids who were identified as having experienced trafficking, have been involved in the child welfare system at some point in their lives. I feel like that shows that that’s a missed opportunity, or maybe a factor into why they found themselves in the situation that they found. If we are able to train child welfare agencies throughout the nation or throughout the state on labor trafficking by forced criminality, imagine how many kids we’ll be able to identify and help. It also shows that one of the other issues was that 90% of the children lack adult relationships, just showing how important it is for a child to have a connection to an adult who’s able to guide them and provide them the help. Sometimes because they lack that, they think they found someone else who’s going to be able to provide that for them, but it’s not that, it ends up being an exploitative relationship. Another interesting fact was that 83% of labor trafficking victims faced arrest before the age of 22, so this is happening to them at a very young age. 56% of them were under the age of 18 when they were being trafficked and the youngest person, I believe, was seven years old. Sandra Morgan 23:53 The key word, I want everybody, if you’re driving don’t do this, but when you’re at your desk, write down the word “missed opportunity.’ Start a little notebook about the missed opportunities, because this data shows how young they start down the path where they have fewer and fewer options. How can we find ways to leverage the opportunities when they’re there? We are often overwhelmed because we have way too many tasks, we have too many, but is there a missed opportunity today? Is there one kid, 18 or seven that we can send on a different path to provide those options? In our juvenile justice system, rehabilitation is built in. It’s baked into how we define justice. It’s not about how to put them in prison, it’s about how to make things more right for their future. I think we have a lot of missed opportunities. When you said this in the presentation I attended recently, that was one of my big takeaways. How do I find those missed opportunities? And honestly, systemically, it’s going to take us, I’m very pragmatic, a long time to get those screening tools in place. They have to be evidence-based. Go back and listen to Dr. Rood. I don’t have time for that but I’m trying to be very patient, and I want all of our healthcare professionals, and our social workers, our educators, to be partnering on those kinds of tools so that everyday people can do this. But in the meantime, we are really depending on individuals, those adults who see a child and say, “We need to look at this a little bit more,” and it changes their whole life. If you’re in the US and you see that, and there is nobody in your community, nobody in your department, just call the hotline and they’ll connect you to somebody. There’s always a way, and we’ll put links to that as well. Anabel, I do know that there are amazing examples in your research. Can we have just one story? Anabel Martinez 26:47 Yes. Some of the stories that we highlighted within our white paper are actually from the Covenant House studies, that we felt really brought home the issues that we were talking about. One of them is a quote from the 2016 study, which is, “It’s like a job where you have a schedule and you have to meet a quota, you have to sell a certain amount in a certain amount of time, or you get threatened and smacked around, or whatever. There’s times where they freak out and spaz, and they scare you and stuff, smack someone else around in front of you, show you that they’re powerful and stuff, just mentally, you can’t go anywhere. I’ve seen it happen to other people, where you can’t get out, and if you get out, you end up in the hospital for a while.” Sandra Morgan 27:30 Wow. Anabel Martinez 27:31 So it’s like stories that we have heard from probably youth who are involved in the delinquency system, but we’re not really being like, “Hmm, what is going on here?” We’re not recognizing it for what it is, which is, there’s some coercion going on here, there’s some psychological tactics going on here, that we’re able to see within the context of maybe CSEC youth, but we can seem to recognize it within this context. Sandra Morgan 27:53 And what happens to the youth in some of my conversations, is when they are recovered from that situation, they have this sense, “Now there’s someone, the good guys, and they’re going to help me,” and instead, they’re put on probation, they have all kinds of restrictions, and they’re put into rehabilitation programs. For me, you all have listened to me for years, talk about if these are children who have found themselves in our systems where we’ve already identified that they have had a very challenging, early start to life, and now we’re talking about rehabilitation. But they often have attachment issues and suffered malnutrition, suffered trauma from abuse, and so they need building from the ground up. We can’t just hang pictures on a wall that does not exist. Lots of our rehabilitation programs assume they learned that self-control, they learned self-regulation, they have the ability to imagine that if they’re in trouble, somebody’s going to come and help them, which is a key element of attachment. I want to remind us that there are opportunities that we are missing, that are right here and don’t take a huge program, they just take individuals to do that. I want to ask you one more question, Anabel, what have you changed your mind on? Anabel Martinez 29:50 Well, I grew up in southeast LA. I don’t know if people are familiar with LA, but a lot of my family lived in Compton and south LA, so there was always this bias and perception of folks who were involved in gangs, even if they were young, this negative perception, right? You were just like, they’re bad, or they’re just people you don’t want to hang out with. You just automatically, any kind of tie to a gang, any tie to criminality, you’re just like, “Okay, I’m staying away.” And I think through my work, I have really been challenging those biases that I grew up in, and I understand that maybe back then that was a way my family was trying to keep me safe. But I think as I’ve gone into my work and learned more about this, I learned that you can’t assume or automatically label someone. You have to first see their humanity and question what made that person, or how did that person get to that point where they felt that that was what they needed to do or where they needed to be. I’ve learned to challenge my own perceptions and biases when I when it comes to this issue, and to help others within my family and within my work, and within my communities, to also do the same. Because I think we really have to take accountability for ourselves and the biases that we allow, to sometimes prevent us from helping people that really need our help. Sandra Morgan 31:10 I’m going to sit in that for a while and take some time to check my own biases. Thank you for that. Wow. So much to dive into here. Anabel, how can people connect with you? How do we add our voices to support this passion you have? Anabel Martinez 31:31 Well, definitely. I would love it if you all could read my White Paper, and if you have any questions or you want to have a conversation, I’ll make sure that my email can be shared so you are able to contact me, and you should be able to follow our Sunita Jain Anti-Trafficking Initiative on both Instagram and X. We’re just trying to grow our social media base, but we are trying to be more active and post more. You can find us on both with the same handle, which is @sunitajainlls, meaning Loyola Law School, so you can definitely find us there. I think a way to help is, if you are someone who’s in charge of providing trainings on human trafficking, that you include labor trafficking, and that you include labor trafficking by forced criminality, even if it’s just one or two slides. I think that will make all the difference because we want to make sure we’re acknowledging all the spectrum of human trafficking that exists, and the fact that usually, the person does not experience just one form of exploitation. There could be many forms of exploitations, and we need to recognize that and not just focus on one specifically, because then we’re not helping them with the other issues that they’re also facing. Sandra Morgan 32:40 Thank you so much, Anabel, we’re going to put links to everything you just mentioned in the show notes. I also want to ask our listeners to take this interview and pass it on to someone else. Let’s help the Sunita Jain Initiative grow. We need to be voices for our youth and make sure that we are not missing opportunities to change the trajectory of their lives, which changes their communities. Thank you, Anabel. Anabel Martinez 33:19 Thank you so much. I really had a great time with you today, and thank you for allowing me to talk about this topic. As you can see, I’m very passionate about it and I just really appreciate being here. Sandra Morgan 33:29 I’m grateful you came today. And for our listeners, if this is your first time, please go to our website, endinghumantrafficking.org, sign up for the podcast as a subscriber, and every two weeks, you’ll get the show notes. Go to gcwj.org to learn more about opportunities to take our anti-human trafficking certificate, and get involved in learning how you can become part of the solution as we study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference. I’ll be back in two weeks.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Ambassador John Cotton Richmond as the two discuss the 2024 Trafficking in Persons Report. John Cotton Richmond Ambassador Richmond is an attorney and diplomat focused on ethical business, human rights, democracy, and rule of law. He served in the country’s highest position dedicated to combating human trafficking as a U.S. Ambassador where he led U.S. foreign policy in the global fight for freedom. As a Partner at Dentons, Ambassador Richmond helps companies keep their supply chains and workforces free of human trafficking. He was named one of the federal “Prosecutors of the Year,” after a decade successfully trying complex police misconduct, cross-burning, neo-Nazi hate crimes, forced labor, and sex trafficking cases across the country. Ambassador Richmond is a Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council, frequent expert for the United Nations, and frequent speaker on justice, freedom, leadership, faith, and vocation. Key Points The TIP Report evaluates 188 countries on their anti-trafficking efforts, including prosecution, protection, and prevention, and ranks them based on their progress compared to previous years. The rankings influence U.S. foreign policy, with tier three countries facing sanctions. Victim identification has improved with 133,943 victims identified this year, but this number represents less than 0.5% of estimated global victims. The TIP Report notes a rise in identified labor trafficking victims (31% of the total), highlighting a shift from primarily sex trafficking cases. The report does not specify industries, but labor trafficking occurs in various sectors, including domestic work and agriculture. Although prosecutions have slightly increased to 18,074, they are still below previous highs. Convictions remain significantly lower compared to past years, indicating insufficient accountability for traffickers. Despite regulations, victim identification remains low due to unfunded or underfunded mandates. Improved funding and strategic resource allocation are necessary to increase victim identification and support. The TIP Report emphasizes both the challenges and opportunities technology presents in combating trafficking. It also highlights the importance of including survivors in anti-trafficking efforts, recognizing their unique perspectives and contributions to the fight against trafficking. Resources 267- The Intersection of Business and Human Rights, with John Cotton Richmond 241 – Ambassador-at-Large John Cotton Richmond: Looking Forward 137 – Interview with Prosecutors: John Cotton Richmond & Victor Boutros 2024 Trafficking in Persons Report Atlas Free Libertas Council Everfree Freedom Life Map U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking UNODC Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #326: Reading Between the Lines of the 2024 U.S. TIP Report, with Ambassador John Cotton Richmond. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so glad to welcome back John Cotton Richmond. His career has taken him to the front lines in the global battle against human trafficking. He’s been on this podcast more than anybody else. His three previous podcasts will be in the show notes, in case you want to go back and listen. Welcome back, Ambassador Richmond. Let us know what you’ve been doing these days. John Cotton Richmond 1:24 Sandie, it’s so good to be back with you, and I’m really excited to talk about this year’s Trafficking in Persons Report. I’m currently working with an organization called Atlas Free, and they gather anti-trafficking organizations together in a network centered around a strategic framework to improve everyone’s efforts in the battle against trafficking. It’s been a delight. I’m also working on a special project I started with some friends, called the Libertas Council, which is really trying to help leaders move from just agreeing that trafficking is wrong and become champions who take action to make sure that we can do something about this crime. Sandra Morgan 2:02 Wow, I’m actually intrigued with this idea of how we become champions that bring about action, not just aspirational motivation. Go get them. So I’m looking forward to hear more about that, but right now I know our listening audience, our community, is really interested in your take on the 2024 Trafficking in Persons Report. We’ll start with, can you give me an overall summary of your response to this year’s report? Something that you really identified. John Cotton Richmond 2:44 I think it’s important for people to know that Trafficking in Persons Report is put out annually by the State Department, and it does many things. It includes a narrative report about 188 countries around the world and how they’re doing on combating trafficking, looking at both prosecution as well as protection and prevention, and then make some prioritized recommendations for each country. It also gives every country a ranking, tier one, tier two, tier two watch list, and tier three. Those rankings are how a country is doing compared to its own previous efforts the year before. It’s not comparing countries to each other, it’s actually just comparing a country to its own prior efforts. So if a country is improving, if they’re doing more, their ranking might go up, and if they’re doing less on this issue, it might go down. I think this year’s TIP Report captured a great deal of interesting information about how governments are doing on trafficking. Sandra Morgan 3:43 I have a question. Those rankings, are they just for on paper, or do they have some sort of consequence, impact? John Cotton Richmond 3:53 The rankings have a significant impact on how we carry out our foreign policy related to human trafficking around the world. Countries want to be ranked higher. That can create an incentive for them to take up the recommendations that we’ve given, but they can also act as a stick in a sense. The tier three rankings come along with sanctions. That is, a country who’s on tier three is not going to get any non humanitarian funding from the US government. Now the president, each year gets to give full or partial waivers to some countries that might be on tier three, but those waivers have not been decided yet, that will happen at the end of September. One of the encouraging things in this year’s TIP Report has to be around victim identification. We’ve been deeply concerned that victims are not getting identified, and if a victim goes unidentified, they’re not getting access to services, their traffickers can’t be held accountable. Really, we all start with can we identify the victims that are around us? The estimate from the United Nations is that there’s 27.6 million victims of sex trafficking and forced labor around the world. And this year, we got a new number from governments about their ability to identify victims, and it was 133,943 victims were identified during the reporting period. That’s the most it’s ever been. It’s up from 115,000 last year, which was our previous high. I think we can celebrate the good incremental progress that we are identifying more victims, but I think we have to do that in the context of realizing how many victims still go unidentified. Although 133,000 is an improvement from where we’ve been, that still means that we’re identifying less than half of 1% of all the victims that we estimate to exist. It’s actually .48% of the victims. So it’s incremental progress, but I think we have to look at that in light of there is so much more to do, and we need governments to do it, we need NGOs to do it, we need communities to come together and make sure that victim identification is prioritized. One thing that is also notable is that of the victims that were identified, 31% of them were labor trafficking victims. That’s much higher than we’ve normally seen. We spent a lot of time talking about the hidden crisis in labor trafficking, whereas sex trafficking victims, those cases get more attention from from prosecutors and governments, but labor trafficking victims often get left behind, and so we’re seeing an increase in the number of labor trafficking victims that are being identified. Sandra Morgan 6:35 What industries? What does that look like? And can you parse out for us the differences in some of the labor trafficking terminology? John Cotton Richmond 6:49 The TIP report doesn’t break that down and disaggregate the data so we know what industries that 31% of identified victims came from, but in the narratives, they talk about different forms of labor trafficking all over the world. We see forced labor as domestic workers who are isolated from communities, often far from home, and their housing, their food, and their work is all controlled by the house owner. We see it in factories, farms, front businesses like massage parlors or nail salons. You can have forced labor in virtually any industry, it’s really the traffickers decision where they want to exploit people and where the trafficker chooses to engage them in commerce. And if they’re doing that in a business, if they’re doing that in a field that’s that’s growing, agriculture, if they’re doing that in a factory that is making things, the trafficker has taken the agency away from the victim, and is choosing to engage in this economically motivated crime in virtually any industry that’s out there, Sandra Morgan 7:50 Just locally, within two miles and 19 miles, we’ve had labor trafficking cases in the poultry processing industry, in illegal cannabis growing in empty warehouses, or at least they look empty, and yet people are sleeping there and being forced to work, and don’t even realize that there are people that would help them. I’m encouraged by the growing number of labor trafficking identifications, but I’m pretty discouraged that we’re at 0.48%. John Cotton Richmond 8:34 Yeah, less than half of 1% are being identified. So we’ve got a long way to go, a long way to go. Another thing that was interesting this year is that we saw prosecutions rebound a bit. They’re still not up to the high of 2015 when we had 19,127 prosecutions, but we’re at 18,074, so we’re getting back up. Convictions, overall, are still way off their high of 2020 by about 25%. We’re seeing less energy put towards holding traffickers accountable, and that impunity that traffickers enjoy only means that they’re going to harm worse, more victims. Sandra Morgan 9:16 So how are we going to light a fire under our court systems? John Cotton Richmond 9:22 I think it’s political will. When people decide that this is an issue they care about and they let policy makers and funders know, people will pay attention. We need to make sure that police, investigators, prosecutors, social workers, victim witness specialists, everyone that’s involved in the criminal justice system, that they have the resources they need, and they have the bandwidth to go in and take care of these cases, and make sure they do it in a trauma informed and victim centered way. If we prioritize it, it will be done. And if we don’t prioritize it, we’ll continue to get the type of numbers that we’re getting. I say all that with the caveat that of course, prosecution is not sufficient. It’s not the end all, and it will not fix all the problems, but without holding traffickers accountable, we’re not going to get to a place where we’re making a dent in this issue. Sandra Morgan 10:16 We talked before we started this interview, about the great mandated regulations, laws, but we aren’t seeing a big bump in victim identification. What needs to happen in order to see that happen? John Cotton Richmond 10:40 I think there is a challenge of unfunded mandates, or underfunded mandates, where governments have said, “We’re tasking agencies with this responsibility to go and do something significant about caring for survivors, about doing trainings, about holding traffickers accountable,” and then they don’t have the resources that they need in order to carry out the mandate they’ve been given. I think we need to make sure that every time we ask folks to do things, that we’re giving them the resources they need to go and get it done. Sandra Morgan 11:11 Do you have some ideas about how we can move the needle forward on funding? What is mandated? I work with a lot of students. I just came back from taking a student team to Greece. Spent four days working with our US Embassies, met wonderful people doing great work with very limited resources, and yet, then when they read about their their tier levels and things, they want to make it to a higher level, but resources are a big piece of that. How are we going to turn the tide there? John Cotton Richmond 11:53 I think we can do it by focusing the monies that we have out there, and deciding that we’re not going to be able to prioritize everything simultaneously. There’s going to have to be some trade offs. So which things are we going to put at the top tier priority? I think human liberty ought to be at that very top tier, and say, “We’re going to fund these things,” and actually take take a significant step towards combating human trafficking, and making sure that everyone who’s trapped has a chance to become free and live out their life, and flourish in whatever their talent and desires are. But when we try to do everything all at once, we find ourselves really restricted and unable to do many things well. Sandra Morgan 12:34 So if a task force in a big city like Los Angeles wants to make a big difference, where would they start with refining how they allocate resources? John Cotton Richmond 12:54 I would encourage them to think through, how can we identify more victims? What would be two or three interventions to focus on where we can increase victim identification, whether it’s from hospitals or schools or through engagement with the criminal justice system, perhaps people that are already detained, figuring out where are victims? How do we have a screening mechanism that would help us identify more people, then we can give them help? But I would focus in on a couple of different interventions and push energy and resources towards them. So instead of funding 10 projects at 10% a piece, focus in on funding one or two projects at a much healthier percentage. Sandra Morgan 13:33 That’s so wise, but so hard to do because there’s so many different voices clamoring that “My group needs this” and, “My group needs that,” and so I think it’s going to take really strong leadership that develops those goals. I do think that the TIP Report does give us some guidance in that area. One of the areas that’s become much more visible here in the US, and when I was in Europe recently, a lot of conversation was around recruiting online and the exploitation happening online. The UN, our Congress here in California, we’re all talking about technology. It’s like no one has a plan for how we’re going to consistently identify victims and do prevention. How do you feel that the TIP Report may have informed that or do you have a solution in your back pocket? John Cotton Richmond 14:39 Well, the theme of this year’s TIP Report was technology and trafficking, both looking at how traffickers are using technology, as well as how people of goodwill who want to come alongside and help can use technology in this way. One thing that I think is important for us to realize is traffickers have always used cutting edge technology throughout the years. As soon as they can get ships’ hulls sturdy enough for Trans Atlantic travel, they were using ships to move people into slavery. When the printing press came and they begin to use printed materials in order to find and coerce victims, phone, internet, everything is the same. Traffickers are going to be using each iteration of technology to improve their illegal business model as they try to trap people, we just have to be equally responsive and find technological ways that we can disrupt traffickers work, how we can identify more victims, and how we can hold more traffickers accountable. Technology, I think, is going to be used by both sides in this battle, we just have to make sure that the people of goodwill are taking advantage of the technological opportunities out there. Sandra Morgan 15:48 So along with technology, I’ve been privileged to sit at the table with my academic colleagues, and they are just so excited about the data that is available to mine, so it’s like the other side of the issue. I have this sense that we’re sitting in a place where research and data can inform exactly what you were talking about. If we have limited resources, how can we target two or three goals? Well, if we have more data around labor in poultry factories, then maybe we’re identifying and training people in those industries. I think that’s what I’m looking for. John Cotton Richmond 16:51 I think it’s a great example of how data could be used, as we’re seeing other groups use technology to gather data, just about how victim services work. Everfree is developing a tool called Freedom Life Map that allows caregivers to determine, what does a survivor believe the greatest needs that they have are, and how can they tailor the care towards that? And they’re using a piece of technology to help facilitate the moving of that information. There are other examples like that, but as we gather better data, we’re going to be able to detect themes, we’re going to be able to see the trends, and we’re going to be able to help more people. Sandra Morgan 17:29 How are we going to fund all of that research to be able to focus? Because this scarcity mentality is part of our challenge and the strategies of prioritizing and getting things moving towards one direction is helpful, but if we can’t fund the research, how do we reliably direct the limited resources that we have? John Cotton Richmond 18:02 I’d love to think that we can have an abundance mentality instead of a scarcity mentality, and that we want to see funding come into this space, and not just from government leaders. We want to see private philanthropy step in and foundations step in, and continue to take a bigger and bigger swing at this issue. There’s a lot of opportunity to engage, tell the story of what is possible, and encourage private philanthropy to step up, as well as trying to get more appropriations through Congress. Sandra Morgan 18:36 I like that. Okay, let’s talk about how you perceive the inclusion of survivors in this particular report. I love the survivor stories, personally, I always love those. But can you give us a little bit of insight? John Cotton Richmond 18:55 I think this TIP report continues to prioritize survivor engagement and centering survivors in this fight. We know that people who have experienced trafficking and have had a trafficker actually take away their liberty, and control not just when they wake up, but where they work and who gets to touch their bodies, ghey look at this differently. We want to honor their experience, we want to honor their insights, we want to honor their opinions about how this work could be done. One thing that I appreciate is we obviously have the US Advisory Council, which is a group of survivors. Many other organizations have created survivor councils, have employed survivors, have moved them into leadership in the organizations, and what this gives is incredible perspective. The TIP report highlights different ways that governments around the world have tried to include survivors with a seat at the table. One thing I appreciate is whenever we get multiple survivors together, we also get disagreement. They’re smart. Their opinions vary sometimes, and they have different approaches just like the rest of us. I think it’s important not just to have one or two survivors, but to get many survivors involved and appreciate all the different perspectives that they’re going to bring Sandra Morgan 20:09 I love that. The idea of so many different stakeholders, though, is also a lot more work for those trying to make a significant difference on the ground. What you talked about with getting us to focus on two or three priorities, we spend a lot of time trying to decide what those two or three priorities are going to be, and then we also end up with a government. We have a federal strategic plan, a state, and a county, and they may not actually converge, they may actually collide. My recent conversations, particularly with victim service providers, they’re looking for some encouragement in how we do this in this next iteration. Before the next tip report or UNODC report, how are we going to see the number of victims identified increase? What can I say to those NGO and service providers that will encourage them, because what I’m starting to see is burnout and compassion fatigue. Is there something in this report that gives a glimmer of hope? John Cotton Richmond 21:44 I think there are glimmers of hope out there, but I do appreciate that burnout is real, compassion fatigue is real. I think people are willing to draw near to difficulty and pain if they believe that they can do something about it. And I think what we have to do is make sure we’re giving people hope that there is a possibility, there is success. I think the increased victim identification number is definitely a step in the right direction. If we can just keep increasing year after year, that will be better. I think the increased numbers on forced labor that were in this year’s TIP Report are also encouraging, that we’re identifying more people in different types of sectors. That represents a lot of work that people have put in over the last several years, and I think we can take some encouragement from that. I also think that we’ve got lots of different options for victim identification. Whether we think about education programs in schools, hospitals and staff being trained on these things, but we need to create that funnel where more and more people are doing an analysis, conducting a screening, making sure that they are engaging with people to determine if they might have indicators of human trafficking, and then they know what to do when they see those indicators. There are more and more opportunities. I think one big aspect of victim identification is to include law enforcement in that, in terms of the trainings, in terms of the funnel of victim identification. Sandra Morgan 23:12 in your experience globally, do you have a sense that law enforcement training for victim identification has increased, or if there are things that we as a community can drive more of the will for that. John Cotton Richmond 23:33 There have been lots of police trainings on trauma informed investigative techniques of human trafficking indicators. We need to keep doing that. Obviously, like in any government agency, people get transferred, positions change, there’s a consistent need for training. But it’s not just training about the issue, it’s training on what could specifically be done, and what do you do if you see indicators of trafficking? And how can we make sure that where we see vulnerable communities, we’re paying particular interest about seeing if people are being trafficked in those industries? Sandra Morgan 24:07 What are some industries that we are neglecting, particularly in the labor trafficking realm, John Cotton Richmond 24:16 I think you would have to include the agricultural industry. It’s a very difficult industry to do traditional surveillance on and gather information. The work is by definition, seasonal, and so people move very quickly. So I think agriculture presents lots of challenges for victim identification. I think domestic work also presents lots of challenges, because it is such an isolating job to do. I think you would also have to say that anytime commercial sex is being sold, there’s a huge overlap with sex trafficking, and identifying children as well as adults that are being sold for commercial sex is something that more attention should be paid to. Sandra Morgan 24:57 Ambassador John Cotton Richmond, here’s my final question today. You’ve been on the front line of this battle for a few decades. What have you changed your mind about? John Cotton Richmond 25:12 That’s such a good question, Sandie. I think when I first started working on this I was living in India, it felt so over whelming. When I finally got my mind around the scope and the breadth of the problem, and how complicated it was, it just felt over whelming. I think what I changed my mind about is that I no longer feel like it’s overwhelming. Instead, having seen survivors shift away from their traffickers, stand up for themselves, recover from their trauma, thrive into independence, I’ve realized that we don’t need to be tormented by the overwhelming nature of the problem, we just have to be consistently working to do something about it. I’ve seen this happen with NGOs around the world that are truly changing people’s lives. I’ve seen policy advocates trying to change systems, and making progress. We’ve seen massive changes in the law. I mean, just since 2000 we’ve seen every country in the world now, put together some sort of law that says human trafficking is illegal. What I want is, I want traffickers to feel like the wave of people coming who are committed to freedom, feels overwhelming to them. That their trafficking crime, which they’ve enjoyed as a high reward, low risk crime, shifts and becomes a high risk, low reward crime. But it’s going to take a community that is committed to doing that, that decides we’re not going to be overwhelmed by the amount of exploitation, but instead we’re going to be overwhelmed by the amount of hope that is coming into the world. Sandra Morgan 27:01 Drop the mic. Perfect. Wow. Okay, so with that, I’m just going say thank you so much. Now for our community, our listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to the endinghumantrafficking.org website, and you can find the links to the episodes that we mentioned. Episode #267: The Intersection of Business and Human Rights, episode #241: Ambassador-at-Large, John Cotton Richmond Looking Forward, and way back episode #137: Interview with Prosecutors. I also want to mention that you can look up the Freedom Lifemap map that Everfree is doing. We did an interview that Ambassador Richmond just mentioned as well. I hope you’ll become a subscriber, so that you’ll get an email with the show notes every time a new episode drops. We’ll be back in two weeks. Thanks, everybody.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Dr. Alexis Kennedy as the two discuss the importance of self care within the parameters of professional careers. Dr. Alexis Kennedy Dr. Alexis Kennedy is a forensic psychology researcher, and professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. She has led federal and state grants to study violence against women and children, and as an expert with more than 30 years of working with human trafficking victims, she knows intimately the risks of developing burnout and compassion fatigue. Dr. Alexis Kennedy works with first responders, health care workers, attorneys, and other helping professionals throughout the US and Canada to stay in important but difficult work without sacrificing their own health. Key Points Burnout and compassion fatigue can take an emotional toll on professionals working with human trafficking victims, that can lead to significant mental and physical exhaustion. Dr. Kennedy emphasizes that self-care is crucial for maintaining effectiveness in high-stress jobs. Professionals must recognize the need to recharge and manage their well-being to avoid burnout. This includes developing healthy routines and taking breaks. Physical and emotional signs of burnout include changes in sleep patterns, appetite, digestive issues, and chronic pain. These symptoms are indicators that stress is impacting one’s health and should be addressed proactively. Vicarious trauma can affect individuals who work closely with trauma survivors as the secondary exposure to trauma can be as damaging as direct trauma, leading to symptoms similar to PTSD. Dr. Kennedy provides practical advice for managing stress, such as maintaining a consistent sleep schedule, creating a calming bedtime routine, and avoiding blue light before sleep. She also mentions the importance of finding balance and avoiding overwork. Peer support plays an important role in recognizing and addressing mental health issues, including suicide risk. Tools like the Columbia Lighthouse Protocol can help identify individuals in need of support and facilitate appropriate interventions. Resources Compassion Recharge Alexis Kennedy The Columbia Lighthouse Project Trauma Recovery Yoga Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #325: The Cost of Burnout with Dr. Alexis Kennedy. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so excited to welcome Dr. Alexis Kennedy to be with us today. She is a forensic psychology researcher, and professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. She has led federal and state grants to study violence against women and children, and as an expert with more than 30 years of working with human trafficking victims, she knows intimately the risks of developing burnout and compassion fatigue. She works with first responders, health care workers, attorneys, and other helping professionals throughout the US and Canada to stay in important but difficult work without sacrificing their own health. Dr. Kennedy, I am so excited to have this conversation today. Welcome. Dr. Alexis Kennedy 1:52 Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here. Sandra Morgan 1:55 So you can call me Sandie, can I call you Alexis? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 1:58 Absolutely. Sandra Morgan 1:59 Okay. So when I first heard about you, I had been in Las Vegas meeting Judge William Voy who had started a CSEC court, commercially sexually exploited children, and he was really on the cutting edge of looking at these kids with a different lens. You’ve been there from the get go with him, it’s like you’ve been swimming in trauma for decades. Can you give us a very tiny glimpse of that? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 2:36 I actually started working in this area before it was called human trafficking, it was simply prostitution, exploitation through prostitution back then, and I’d been doing it for a decade before I even moved to Las Vegas. I was really shocked when I got to Las Vegas, how different the kids were being treated than you see in other countries. They were being criminalized and treated very differently. So of course, I jumped in to try and make a change. The thing is that these are really difficult stories to hear, these are really difficult situations. People who want to learn about it, want to help, we do it because we care, but there’s a cost to hearing these difficult stories, a cost to trying to change systems that are very slow to change, and that does take a toll on your mind and body, whether you notice it or not. Sandra Morgan 3:24 When I started talking to you recently, you used a phrase. It captured my attention and I am sure there are going to be people listening, that have been with us for decades in this, and you use the phrase “getting out and handing it on?” Why do you need to get out? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 3:47 Well I’ve been, 32 years now, hearing these stories, interviewing, taking information, and even if you have the best sort of reset button or way to process and hold all those stories, eventually you’re going to fill up how much you can take and how much you can handle. But it’s hard to leave when we feel like we’re the one with the answers, which is a problem with ego. I mean, that’s the exciting thing about education and the growing awareness around human trafficking, when there’s more people at the table, then we’ll be able to say, “Here’s my knowledge, here’s my expertise, here’s my suggestions, I’m going to step aside and hand the baton off to you.” Sandra Morgan 4:31 That’s so healthy because burnout, what are some of the risks for burnout? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 4:38 Burnout is something that can happen in any career and any job. It really is the idea that your body and mind and emotions are overwhelmed, and we can’t really address it if we don’t know where the source of stress is coming from. It’s a lot more complicated, once I started researching it, then people realize. It’s different than just simply stress. You had your daughter on, the other Dr. Morgan, and she framed stress really well, because it is something that we can use as a tool and have something that energizes us, but we also don’t want to have our foot to the gas pedal at 100 miles per hour, for year, after year, after year. For those of us that are working in fields with an urgency, like helping human trafficking victims, we’re not really good at turning it off when we go home. We don’t do this nine to five job where we stop thinking about the people we see that we’re trying to help as soon as we go home, on our vacations we’re completely relaxed, we’re very bad at helping ourselves. We’re good at helping others and not very good at helping ourselves. Burnout really can be addressed if you understand where all these sources of stress are coming from, and figuring out ways that you can take a break, or give yourself a little more kindness, give yourself that chance to recharge, that we don’t when we’re gas pedal to the floor, changing the world, doing everything for everyone. Sandra Morgan 6:01 I call this episode The Cost of Burnout. For me, after our first conversation, I started looking through your website, you’ve got recharged.how, and of course, your alexiskennedy.com. I began to really look at the cost of burnout from a personal perspective, but then from a network perspective. I have friends and listeners in 148 countries, we need every one of you to keep doing what you’re doing, recruit your replacement so you can hand things off at the right time. The cost of burnout is we drop the baton. We aren’t there for that child in the courtroom, or in the brothel on a side road. So your ‘why’ for making this transition, can you give us a little of an understanding of how, number one: this addresses burnout for you, personally, and how you envision this for the rest of us? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 7:19 The interesting thing about the compassion fatigue research, it actually came out of the world of nursing where a lot of ER nurses were saying, “You know what, when I’m at work, I’m amazing. I give it all,” and by the time they get home, they flop on the couch and they don’t move for another 48 hours until it’s time to go back for the next shift. They said, “I like being good at my job, but I don’t want to leave 100% of everything at work,” and in contrast, the doctors they were working with work really similarly, at 100 miles per hour. They didn’t want to take those breaks and build that self care, and it was considered weak or too woowoo. What will happen with them is they’ll go 100 miles per hour for their career, and then when they finally do retire, a week into their retirement, they drop dead of a heart attack. So we can burn the candle at both ends, but there’s a cost to it. If we want to stay in a difficult job like human trafficking, advocacy, or any kind of research, we have to slow down and build in self care, and build in times to recharge. Because the people who go and say, I actually had students make me a t-shirt at one point that said, ‘I’ll sleep when I’m dead.’ It was kind of cute. but actually now in retrospect it was a big, red flag. Sandra Morgan 8:32 I always say, “I’m going to sleep on the plane. Don’t worry, I’ll sleep on the plane.” Dr. Alexis Kennedy 8:37 I realized, I want to retire. I mean, I want to have a period of my life where I can work at a less furious pace, even though the social issues continue, and the stuff that needs to be solved is still there. But not everybody even makes it to retirement. A lot of people if they are giving 100% at work, and all of a sudden something else happens, a home crisis, a sick parent, a sick child, they’ve got no reserve left to handle that. If they’re trying to handle the stuff outside of work, and one of the best ways to recharge is social connection and friendship, a lot of our jobs are very socially isolating. I know that if I go to a dinner party and people ask what I do, and I talk about human trafficking, I instantly get that glazed look where they’re like, “Oh no, please don’t talk to me.” We don’t have that social recharge, that people don’t necessarily want to talk about what we’re doing at work. That means that we’re putting everything into work, and if you don’t have outlets and don’t have brakes, when you do collapse which you will if you’re going 100 miles per hour without that balance, you can take down not just you, but the people around you, and the entire program. And that’s a problem because there’s such an urgency to help the victims, the clients, the people that we’re advocating for, it’s almost ike we don’t want to feel sorry for ourselves or give ourselves any sympathy, because what they’re going through is so much worse. But it’s not a competition of victimization. The reality is, even if you come from a completely idyllic background, and have an amazing friend group and have amazing homelife, the stories we’re hearing start to weigh down on us, and that that weight is going to take stress on our body, on our nervous system, on our digestive system, all of these things are interconnected. When the body starts to break down, then we don’t have as much empathy, it affects the way we thinkm it’s all interconnected. In medicine, we tend to look at just the body in isolation, but it’s holistic. When your body breaks down, it’s often the warning sign that you’ve got too much emotions that you haven’t been able to process. Often it’s when we stopped sleeping, we realize, “Wait, maybe it’s not just about my bed, maybe it’s about all the stories I’m trying to process while I’m sleeping.” So we have to take the physical warning signs as an indicator that maybe we need to look at, holistically, our whole life, balance, stress, and what other things that we’re trying to juggle. Sandra Morgan 11:16 For people like me, because I’m going to just own this, this is my private, pre-therapy, education appointment with you. For people like me, I need more than feelings and ‘how are you on a scale of one to 10?’ I can’t measure that, really. I need more physical, tangible signs. If I track my sleep, that could be an indicator, what other kinds of physical health risks can I look for? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 11:54 Changes in appetite or the way you digest things, if you’ve always got an upset stomach. Most of our stress hormones are actually made in the digestive system. That’s one of the things, I’ll see my students during exam period, those that have irritable bowel syndrome, when the stress goes up, their ability to eat goes down. We don’t think about digestion but how regular are you, how’s your system running? That’s a really important one. We carry a lot of stress, we hold stress in different parts of our body. If you wake up with a neck that won’t turn all the way around, or you’ve got this pain in your hip, that’s often a sign that you’re not stretching, that you’re holding a lot of things in your body, so those aches and pains are a warning sign as well. I actually got called out by my dentist, and he said, “Are you really stressed?,” and I’m like, “I teach stress medicine.” He’s like, “Well, you’re clenching your teeth at night to the point that they’re starting to crack.” It was interesting because I didn’t notice it. I knew that my jaw was stiff, I guess sometimes waking up, I can’t control what I’m thinking about when I sleep. A lot of trauma victims have that as well, where they have teeth problems because they’re just clenching or grinding their teeth at night. So, trying to get everybody educated. If you go on vacation and you’re the person that on the first day of vacation, you get sick and you’re sick for the rest of vacation, that means that you’re not in balance during the rest of the time, and we want our vacations to be fun, not sitting in bed trying to get over the latest cold. Stress depresses our immune system, so if you catch a cold that’s going around, that’s another indicator that you might be out of balance and pushing too hard. Sandra Morgan 13:39 You mentioned listening to the stories. How does vicarious trauma show up in this situation? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 13:48 It actually can be the equivalent to primary trauma. It can manifest in terms of PTSD. A lot of people who’ve been in this field end up developing PTSD from not just the stories that we hear, but our bodies mirror the emotion. When you’re sitting across from the victim who’s talking about a life or death situation, our body picks up on that, and it turns up our fight or flight system because our brain has the amazing ability to make these stories real. We see someone reliving when they were in danger, life or death, and our body’s alarm systems rev up, going, “Oh, danger!” Even though we may be sitting in an office and we’re just hearing a story, that constant turning on of your fight or flight system is something that ends up burning us out a little bit. But with the PTSD, even if it’s not PTSD, a lot of times when we hear a really upsetting story, also in the moment we’re calming the person down or trying to reflect to them that they’re safe now, we’re presenting positive outcome future, that’s what we’re trying to help them get to, when we go home, have those quiet moments, that’s when it goes through. I would notice I’d be at my kid’s soccer game and instead of watching him, all of a sudden my brain went back to the story I heard and my body, all of a sudden, gets into this busy mode of, “What can I offer?,” and, “Did I do enough?,” and, “What are their resources?” So, just recognizing that that gas pedal gets constantly pushed when we least expect it. Where it’s most obvious is in sleep, when you’re sleeping restlessly, or you’re dreaming. Sleep is so important, it’s the single most important medicine that we have but of course, because nobody can patent it, there’s not a lot of conversation around it. What happens when we sleep is just incredible. Not only do our bodies flush, our muscles reset, our digestive system resets, our whole brains flush because we have to get rid of the neurotransmitters that are lingering around that we didn’t use. If you’re not getting a good sleep, and not getting the different sleep cycles, you’re not processing the stuff you saw during the day, because at night is when we sort the stories. It’s when we come up with our creativity, where we make connections we might not have otherwise done, it really is the most important part of our day in a lot of ways. But if you are overworked, overwhelmed, not finding a way to decompress from the stories that you’re hearing, that lack of sleep is going to make you eventually unhealthy physically, but it also depletes your ability to do your job the next day. We’re not as sharp and we don’t sleep, we’re not as good at handling emotions, we’re not as good at hearing difficult stories. So it’s not selfish to prioritize sleep, it’s actually the best tool you can use and engage to be able to be the best version of yourself at work. Do you teach us how to sleep? Actually, it’s kind of amazing, we all have the answers. The best thing I love about teaching about stress management is it’s all common sense, I don’t have to convince people. The research is now showing us that we really need a routine. If we go to bed one night at nine and the next night at midnight, we’re messing up our circadian rhythm, we’re fighting our basic biological instincts. We also mess up our bedtime routine because in the old days, the light would go down, your candle would get dim, you’d blow it out, your body would know it’s time to sleep. When we’re in bed at midnight, scrolling through our Instagram to look at some funny dog or cat videos to try and decompress, that blue light from that phone is is going straight into your eyeballs, straight into your brain saying, “it’s still light out, don’t go to sleep.” So the things that we do before bed that we think are calming us down, are actually sending all these contrary messages to our brain. The latest research shows that even if you can only get six hours of sleep a night, you want to go to bed and do the same six hours every night. Because if you’re on the weekend saying, “Well, I’m gonna go to bed at 5pm and just get a 12 hour night’s sleep,” that’s not going to work because you’re fighting the way that our body is set up to respond to light and rhythms and basic systems. Sandra Morgan 18:10 Are there any guidelines for this routine that include what I eat? Some people medicate, they take things like melatonin, magnesium, all of those. Should I be paying attention to those ads that pop up when I’m scrolling on Instagram to calm down? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 18:31 Well, North Americans are very addicted to having a quick pill to fix things, but the research shows that it’s more holistic than that. Going to sleep at a regular time, turning off the electronics and the blue light and maybe listening to an audible book as you’re trying to fall asleep, or putting a red light in your bedside table and reading a paper book, those are all things that will… Sandra Morgan 18:58 A paper book? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 19:00 They exist still. Sandra Morgan 19:01 Oh, wow. Okay, go ahead. Dr. Alexis Kennedy 19:03 Something without blue light so that we are sending that message to our brain, through our body, that the sun is setting and it’s time for us to calm down, then our body produces melatonin. Melatonin is a thing that gets everything ready to say, “Okay, it’s time to sleep.” Melatonin gets us to sleep, it doesn’t really keep us asleep. A lot of that can be done through our own strategies. Making sure your room is really dark when you sleep, that’s something some people are always sensitive about and have to have blackout curtains. But there is a real truth to the fact that your body, even through the skin, will absorb light and take in that information and say, “Oh, actually, it must be daytime so we should get up.” If you ever go to a hotel and it’s an unusual alarm clock, and you open your eyes in the middle of the night and think, ‘Oh my gosh, that’s like the power of the sun it seems so bright,” we do sleep better in dark environments. We also need cooler environments. 65 to 68 degrees is the right temperature to sleep, because one of the systems our body goes through is that when our temperature drops at the end of the day, that’s what signals the melatonin and the rest of things to start sleep. So people that are trying to sleep in too hot of a room, that’s sort of difficult. Even if you go to sleep under the sheets, you’ll notice you wake up with your arms out and your feet out, that’s because your body needs to have a certain temperature to stay asleep. Changing your temperature is another one that’s really powerful. Sandra Morgan 20:30 So it’s not selfish of me to say no because I need to go to bed? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 20:37 Correct. It’s your best practice to be the most efficient person you are the next day. People want you to be good at your job, they want you to not be cranky, and impatient, and just really emotionally depleted, and sleep is the thing that allows us to reset. I’s the first thing we give up but it’s actually the most important thing. Sandra Morgan 21:01 I’m going to definitely think of you as I develop better routines for regulating sleep, because I think you’re absolutely right. I’m looking at some more questions that I have here, we may have to have you come back, but you are coming for Ensure Justice in March. I want to talk about screening tools, especially in areas where we’re talking about peer support and suicide prevention. We talked a little bit about people in high risk professions, in law enforcement, in military, can you tell us about how those kinds of tools might help us? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 21:49 Often we don’t see our red flags, but our co-workers will see the red flags on a minimal level. We have those colleagues who we know are hangry that when they’re hungry, you don’t want to talk to them, so sometimes you’ll bring them a muffin before you have to ask them something difficult. We don’t always notice when we’re really out of balance and really toppling over, whereas our colleagues will. That’s particularly true for when people are at very low points and feeling suicidal. We have this myth that talking about suicide will cause it, but all of the research is showing it’s the exact opposite, that we need to be open about the fact that people who are going through depression, anxiety, difficult emotions, suicidal thoughts are kind of normal. What we want to do is figure out who are the people who have moved beyond suicidal thoughts to actual suicidal plans? And by asking them and doing a warm handoff and saying, “You know what you seem like you’re really struggling right now. Let me walk you over to our counselor, let me call the suicide hotline, pass me your phone and we’ll do this together.” People are afraid to talk about suicide because they think, “Well I can’t diagnose it, I can’t fix it.” We don’t need to do that, we just need to notice it, identify it, and then give a handoff so that we can take people to the resources that they need. It’s difficult to do when you see someone in crisis, we’re afraid to doing the wrong thing, but doing nothing is going to be the wrong thing. So one of the tools that’s being promoted throughout the United States is the Columbia Lighthouse Protocol, and it’s a peer to peer screening tool that gives people a simple six questions about suicide ideation and whether or not people are making plans. If it’s yes to any of those questions, to then help them get in contact with the the suicide hotline or a resource that you have at work. We know that because of stress and trauma, the rates of suicide have been very high in the military. The groups that have implemented this tool have seen a reduction in their suicide. When I do it with firehouses and working with them, they’ll often say, “Well, I don’t need it personally but I know some colleagues who need it.” They also say, “I wish you would train my wives, or my partners and spouses, because they’re the ones that know when I’m really struggling.” So it’s something that the more widespread we get, the better equipped we’ll be to have those hard conversations. Sandra Morgan 24:22 Wow, okay. One of the things in our first conversation that shocked me, was our conversation about meditation and yoga. Because wellness practices are commonly recommended for stress relief, but this idea that this can be unsafe, I need you to unpack that for me. Dr. Alexis Kennedy 24:49 It’s interesting because we think that meditation is a complete, blank mind and that that’s what we’re trying to get to. Meditation is more about being present and noticing what’s going on. And for a lot of the victims that I’ve worked with, meditation is not safe. When they sit still and let their brain run wild, they go back to revisiting the things that they’ve tucked away, the traumatic life or death situations. So just sitting in silence can actually be very triggering, and can be very traumatizing. There are groups like the Trauma Recovery Yoga Group that was started in Las Vegas, where what they do is they worked with the, again the VA hospital and traumatized people there, and if you do a guided meditation where you’re being talked to the entire time and asking you to turn your mind to your feet, now think of your ankles, or going through specific positive meditations, that is safe, but just putting on a bit of music and asking people to sit still can actually be incredibly triggering. It’s true of a lot of treatment modalities, like even if you’re in a yoga class, it’s not always safe to touch people in a yoga class. If you’ve got someone who’s got a history of sexual victimization, and the instructor goes over and grabs them by the hips to readjust them, that can be incredibly triggering and traumatizing. It’s understanding how trauma affects the nervous system, and how we have to provide that extra guidance and support, is going to be the healing modality, but you can’t just tell someone to go on YouTube and watch any old video or any old meditation, you may be setting them up for a really rocky ride and a really difficult experience. Sandra Morgan 26:36 So can I find more on your recharged.how website? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 26:41 Yes. I’m constantly putting out little videos when people sign up, I do newsletters, and I do free training webinars. I have one that I love doing, which is ‘Why You Should Go On Vacation.” In North America, we’re terrible about taking our vacation time. It feels like the world is still burning, wherever we’re leaving, how can I possibly take a break from that? But it’s critically important to take that break or you won’t be able to go back to your job. There’s only so many years you can burn the candle at both ends. Sandra Morgan 27:13 As I look at the things on the website, and I consider the risk of not prioritizing this self care, this health agenda, it can take down an entire agency, there is a cost to burnout. It’s not something glorified, you’re a hero because you never take a day off. What would you say to someone who is having a hard time taking that time? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 27:13 It’s really a question of, gosh that’s a tough one. Well, I guess the simplest way to put it is if you want to continue to help people and take care of other people, you have to take care of yourself. There are no prizes for sleeping very little and being a martyr, that’s not going to make you an efficient worker, it’s not going to make you a patient advocate, it’s not going to make you a good colleague, it’s not going to make you a nice person to live with. Look at all of those relationships and say, “How can I be the best version of myself?” Self care isn’t selfish, it’s actually critical. But self care has been couched with this idea that it’s just pedicures and kale salads, some people will say, it’s much more complicated. It’s the idea that we are athletes, we’re in this marathon of helping people. Athletes, they prioritize sleep, they know that when they eat better, they’re going to feel better the next day, they know that if they push too hard, they’re going to get injured the next day> We have to think about how do we keep our bodies and minds in peak performance? And that is by taking care of ourselves so that we can get up and run that marathon the next day. Sandra Morgan 29:06 Alexis, you are just amazing, and you already gave us decades of amazing research for the people we want to serve. But you said to me in our last conversation, I feel called to teach the things I need to learn. What do you want people to do? What are the action steps they can take now to get the kind of training to make the changes that you’re recommending? Dr. Alexis Kennedy 29:40 I think they have to realize that you’re part of the solution, and if you want to celebrate that and pat yourself on the back and say, “Look at me, I’m making a huge difference in people’s lives,” you also have to pay attention to yourself and that means taking care of yourself. It’s hard because when we do a hard day’s work, have really hard situations, you’re tired on the way home, you don’t want to stop and make a salad, you’d rather get fast food at the drive through. The reality is, it’s a gift to yourself every time you eat healthy, sleep well, drink enough water. We have to reframe it. It’s not “I have to go on a diet, I have to stop doing this, I don’t want to be bad.” We really have to reframe it into the positive that “I want to keep doing this important work so I need to fuel myself in the best possible way.” And that also includes surrounding yourself in your off time with the right people. Often as helpers, and I see this with all the first responders and therapists that I work with, we have a really high tolerance for crazy. We are often the person that’s friends with someone that nobody else wants to be friends with. If your phone rings, and you see it’s that person who’s gonna talk for an hour and not ask you a question, and your stomach drops and you think, “Ugh, I have to take this,” don’t take it. No. Choose to be with people who energize you and make you feel really good, and you don’t have to fix everyone, you don’t have to be everyone’s solution. Speaker 1 29:40 Oh my goodness, Alexis, I’m going to listen to this podcast over and over again, it’s like you give me permission. I think that’s a gift, I think that’s a gift. We will have you back on, we’ll do some deep dives in some of these practices. I do want to keep sending people to your website. Tell us again, the website. Dr. Alexis Kennedy 31:14 It is www.recharge.how. Sandra Morgan 31:23 I love that the ending is ‘how’ because that’s what usually we need to know. We need to know how to do something. As we are closing here, I just want to take this opportunity, Alexis, to thank you for your decades of service and how you have turned your own journey into teaching things the rest of us really need help with as well. As a psychology researcher, I want to be one of your test subjects for helpers in this work, so thank you so much for being with us today. Dr. Alexis Kennedy 32:25 Thank you so much for letting me share this information I’m really passionate about. Sandra Morgan 32:29 And I’m looking forward to having you with me here at Ensure Justice, March 6th and 7th, 2025. Now’s the time to put this on your calendar. We’re inviting you also, if you have never been on the endinghumantrafficking.org website, go on over, find the resources, links in the show notes to things Alexis and I have talked about, the anti human trafficking certificate, all kinds of resources. If you’ve never become a subscriber, just click that. You won’t get a bunch of email but you will get show notes every two weeks when there’s a new conversation. We’ll be back in two weeks.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Rachel Thomas as the two discuss the importance of role models and mentors for vulnerable youth. Rachel Thomas Rachel Thomas is a survivor, advocate, and educator. She is serving her second term on the White House Advisory Council, co-founded Sowers Education Group, and speaks all over the country. Rachel Thomas will be the Amplify 2024 Keynote speaker to support the work of the Global Center. She has previously been a guest on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast on episode #196: Ending The Game and episode #272: The Cool Aunt Series. Key Points Role models and mentors have a significant impact on youth, particularly black youth and those in the foster care system. They are crucial in providing guidance, stability, and positive examples that many youth may lack. Many youth look up to hip hop artists who may embody success and empowerment in ways that resonate with them, although there are potential pitfalls of hyper-sexualization and dysfunctional themes in the genre. When it comes to mentoring youth, challenges may arise surrounding the idolized figures in hop hop culture, however, it is important to have conversations around these influences without dismissing the artists or their influences. As a mentor, it is important to build rapport, understand the youth’s perspectives, and gradually introduce alternative ways of thinking and aspirations. It is important that adults get involved in mentoring programs, such as through organizations like Big Brother Big Sister, or creating internships for youth within local communities. One committed mentor can make a significant difference in a young person’s life. Resources #196: Ending the Game #272: The Cool Aunt Sower’s Education Group Coaching for Leaders Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #324: Role Models and Mentors, with Rachel Thomas. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I’m so happy to welcome back our good friend, Rachel Thomas. Rachel Thomas 0:58 Hi Dr. Morgan, thank you so much for having me back. This is an honor and a pleasure, always. Sandra Morgan 1:03 I just love having conversations with you, Rachel, I learn so much. You’re an amazing survivor, advocate, and educator. You’re serving your second term on the White House Advisory Council, you co-founded Sowers Education Group, you speak all over the country, and in fact, I’m really excited that you’re going to be our Amplify 2024 Keynote, to support the work of the Global Center. We’re really excited. You’ve been a frequent flyer on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I’d like to recommend that people go back and listen to episode #196: Ending The Game, probably one of the best discussions on psychological coercion, and your episode #272 with The Cool Aunt Series. I’m happy to have you back, Rachel. Rachel Thomas 2:08 Thank you, honored to be back, and glad that you’re still doing this important podcast. This is such a great resource and service to the community. Sandra Morgan 2:17 I just love it. I got an invitation in the mail yesterday, an email, to go on a talk show in Dublin, Ireland. Rachel Thomas 2:27 Wow. Sandra Morgan 2:29 I just love how international our community is, and people care. Hopefully because of that, other people will get a chance to listen to our conversation today. We’re going to talk about the theme of Models, Role Models and Mentors for Black Youth. When I think about role models, when I was a young person, I wanted to be like my teacher, I wanted to be a professor. One of the people I wanted to be like, I had eye problems from the time I was very small I started wearing glasses, they looked like little baby lenses, so my optometrist, I was like, I want to grow up and be an optometrist. What were some of your role models? Rachel Thomas 3:19 Oh, good question. My role models, I did have several teachers that I adored. My parents really were some of my main role models. I have family members, I’m from a family of entrepreneurs, so older cousins. I had some career role models, basically teachers, I’ve always wanted to be a teacher. Then some some other types of role models for how to walk, how to dress, how to carry myself, how to show up in a room, and that was a lot from my mom and aunts, and family members. Sandra Morgan 3:23 I think today’s youth have a lot of different kinds of role models, especially in that social space about how to dress and all of that. And from you, I’ve been learning that the role models in our hip hop culture, in rap culture, are really pretty different. So can you talk to us about some of the impact of role models on black youth? Rachel Thomas 4:32 Sure. This is something I’ve always been aware of having taught high school, but now that my organization has a contract to work with foster youth directly, we’re two years in and we just got renewed for another two years so that’s a blessing. Sandra Morgan 4:49 Yay! Rachel Thomas 4:50 Yeah. We are tasked with reaching 50,000 California foster youth with the message of Human Trafficking Prevention, but we also are afforded the great, honestly it’s an honor and a privilege, to do mentorship. It’s not like a one time, teach them something and go, we are able to have ongoing relationships with these youth. I am intimately aware of a good handful of our foster youth and who really they are looking up to, who they are patterning their lifestyle and their goals after, and when it comes to our black youth. And I know this conversation is about black youth because I’m black and we do work with a lot of black youth, but really, hip hop is the most pervasive teenage youth genre, so it definitely goes beyond just black youth. It’s really all youth, different socioeconomic status, different regions, that’s just the number one genre of music that you’d like. I think when we’re talking about with black youth, it’s even more impactful, especially with our foster youth, because they may not have other role models that are playing a leading role. It’s the hip hop artists, it’s the rap artists, it’s the ones who have millions of followers and millions of dollars and fans, and all of the accolades and things that they would love to have. That’s who’s really leading them. Sandra Morgan 6:32 You gave me a homework assignment before this episode, and I have a list of just female rappers, not even the whole. I went and looked at this, and it gave me a little more context for when I’m talking to students, when I’m talking to young people in some of our drop in centers that are more vulnerable and may have already been trafficked. They dress like what they see. What ways do these artists who are very successful, they are entrepreneurs, inspire or influence what our youth want to be, their aspirations? Rachel Thomas 7:24 Sex. It’s all about hypersexuality, it’s all about using what you got to get what you want. It’s all about “I’m prettier than the next one,” “My body is nicer than yours,” “My body feels better in bed than yours,” and I’m saying it all very nicely. Sandra Morgan 7:45 You’re translating for my audience and me. Rachel Thomas 7:47 Right. Sandra Morgan 7:48 Thank you. Rachel Thomas 7:50 It’s all hypersexuality and the sense of, definitely competition and sexual prowess, and also, it’s just glorifying dysfunction on many levels, from dysfunctional interpersonal relationships. There’s a huge push on being the “baddest bitch” is a big term. In some ways it can be spun as empowerment, there’s a strength to it, there is some power in it, but it also verges on just glorifying not having friendships, and being able to be self sufficient, and not needing anyone. All of it is like if you have one traumatized youth, and they went down the path of what we would not want someone to do after they’ve been traumatized. If they didn’t go to therapy, and didn’t have healing, and didn’t have any resources, this is the music that they would create. They’ve taken being sexually abused and instead of looking at it as a trauma, they’ve looked at it as, “I’ve been put in this category, and I’ve learned the skills, and I’m going to be the best at it. Instead of it being done to me for free, now I’m going to make money out of it and be proud of it.” That’s one example, and for the most part, I think they really are rapping and talking about their actual held beliefs, but I think others, it’s because they’re in such that climate, and such sales that they’re not even like that in real life, but in order to be popular, that’s the lane for black female artists. You have to play that game and you have to lead with sexuality and just attitude. Sandra Morgan 9:51 Wow. That kind of brings us back to the Ending the Game content that you’ve been so instrumental in. I think as I’ve watched how you have impacted the lives of young people, survivors from our program, not limited just to black youth and minor victims of trafficking, but adults as well, I’ve seen you use your real life, you’ve got grit. You can say the words that are really challenging for me to say, and I’m in shock, I don’t even know how to have a conversation, which I don’t need to because we’ve got you, and you have that conversation. How do you engage a young person who is modeling their life after these hip hop figures, and begin to impact them to make different choices? Rachel Thomas 11:03 My approach, and mind you, I’m someone who, in my teen years, that was the music I liked also. In retrospect, I think that was a vulnerability into trafficking for me, that it desensitized pimping and actually glorified pimping. I didn’t look at it as a destructive, dangerous reality, it looked more like something cool that the women signed up for and the men were smooth. My approach is never to trash talk to artists that they like, because they’re people too. I think first is to just have a casual, curious conversation about why they like these artists. Sometimes it’s the beat, sometimes it’s the lyrics, the sound. They have that grit and empowerment to them, and if they feel powerless in certain areas, then they want to hear from someone who is just uber powerful, even if it’s talking about how sexual they are, or whatever. It starts with a curious, non- judgmental conversation, and then after some rapport is there, or when it’s not going to feel like an attack, then just talking about having more of a critical lens on some of the lyrics, some of the lifestyle. If it’s what they relate to, and it’s what makes sense to them, then accepting that and also just introducing other ways of thinking, introducing other alternatives for how to have success and respect, and feel powerful in life. I think so much of it is about walking the journey and it’s not just telling people that the path they’re on is wrong, that’s not helpful at all, you have to help them walk it, you have to help them actually see and believe that there’s a different alternative for their life. A lot of times for black youth, they have to see something else. Dr. Morgan, so you had mentioned your optometrist, and your teachers, people around you who have poured into your life that became your role models. A lot of our black foster youth they want to be social workers, they want to be foster parents, they want to be teachers, they want to be coaches, and that’s beautiful. It’s the exact same thought behind it, that some of them want to be the positive people that have poured into their life. But for those who don’t have that, or maybe they just have their eyes in a different direction, then they want to be the nearest rapper or rap artist, female, sometimes athletes. That’s their version of dreaming beyond a regular nine to five, if they want stardom, if they want something more than being a teacher or a social worker, then it’s “I’m going to be a rapper.” Sandra Morgan 14:04 I’m listening to you and I don’t think I ever saw you, because I’ve known you as an advocate, you’d already finished your masters when we first met. I knew your story, but this idea that this genre of music was part of what made you a little more receptive to people reaching out to you and offering you opportunities that looked really amazing to a young college student, that part of your story helps me see where we might be able to be more intentional about mentoring. I’m curious how you have moved your advocacy into more mentoring. I know so many of the young people that you are mentoring, and I don’t know how you do it, because there are so many lives that you’re speaking into. Maybe tell me what it means to you to be a mentor for someone? Rachel Thomas 15:20 I definitely have to give a shout out to the Cool Aunt Team, we have Teyanna. We have a team of Survivor Leaders who are also available for mentorship, and our lead youth mentor is Teyanna, and she is absolutely amazing. She’s now a wife and a mother, and an equestrian and just slaying all of her goals. But she was trafficked from the ages of 11 to 22. She went to prison for her trafficker for a while and has really just had a hard road, and has earned every bit of the wisdom and joy and resilience that she exudes. It’s not just me, we do have a team of seven mentors, actually. I think what that looks like is just being available. Some days we’re talking about their upcoming history test, some days we’re talking with them, crying about why their mother doesn’t want them or love them, or why they choose drugs over them. Letting the youth lead the conversation, and you know, having lessons prepared, so if they just show up and they don’t have anything to say, then we have plenty to talk about. But really, it’s being available. I think since I am blessed to have healthy, loving, involved parents, I just go off of that. If I fill in as a parent role for this kid, for this time that we have together, that’s all I’m doing. I’m listening, I’m being helpful, I’m providing resources, I am being empathetic, I’m giving advice when warranted, and when not, I’m doing it in a way that is palatable and not too judgmental. That’s really, that’s what it is, it’s what a parent would be doing, that these kids just don’t have access to that Sandra Morgan 17:20 I’ve followed some of our foster youth and many times I get to kind of feel like I’m part of an extended family. One time, I started asking questions like, how do you define family? Because I began to see that they had skills for creating a community around them that was supportive, that resembles what you’re talking about with growing up with so much family support, like I had. I’m curious how you’ve experienced this informal family model? Rachel Thomas 18:10 That was a lot of our reason for naming this work that we’re doing with youth, The Cool Aunt. That goes in line with the feeling of family, and I think for youth, especially our foster youth, they are starving for that. They want someone who sees them, who cares, and it’s really just been an honor and a blessing. They’ll say things like, “Wow, nobody’s just like sat with me before, and listened.” So many people in their lives are work and goal oriented, it’s, “I have to find your next placement, and get you enrolled in this, and do the tasks,” that sometimes they don’t have someone to just sit and talk about whatever they want to talk about. It’s not rocket science, it’s not something that is super strenuous for the mentor or for the adult, it’s really just availability and showing up. I tell everyone to become a mentor, there’s Big Brother, Big Sister, there’s so many different avenues to get involved. Creating an internship at your place of work and opening it up for foster youth to come shadow for maybe a day or something. It’s not hard work, but it’s life changing, important work. I just find that it’s something that youth are receptive to, and you don’t have to solve their problems, you don’t have to be a therapist, you don’t have to be someone that’s going to take them out of the system and save them at all, it’s really just showing up. You can’t be what you can’t see. If they don’t know of any kind, healed adults, then it’s not a great possibility that they’re going to turn into that. If they’ve never met an attorney, if they’ve never met a chef, if they’ve never met all of these other careers that they have not had interaction with at that point, then that’s not even something they know that is a possibility that they can aspire to be. Whether it’s different career choices, or characteristics, or any part of the identity that makes up a person, they have to be exposed to it in some intimate way for them to even put that in their realm of possibilities. Sandra Morgan 20:35 Mentors help with creating dreams. Rachel Thomas 20:37 Mm hmm. Sandra Morgan 20:39 I think I’ve been listening to a podcast this week. Every time I get in my car, I turn on somebody’s podcast, and I was listening to a podcast about mentoring this week. I think I’ll put the link, it’s from Coaching for Leaders. One of the most important aspects that helped me was what you’ve been talking abou. It discriminated between mentoring and coaching. Coaching is telling you what to do, run to this bass, hold, watch for my signal, whatever. But mentoring doesn’t tell you what to do. It requires a lot of listening, and I think it’s hard for us to create formal mentoring paths. Being organic is part of this concept of a community that’s a family. I have people around the world who call me aunt or auntie or auntie, depends on what part of the world they’re from, and I feel that sense of family. That is this informal opportunity to mentor, but I don’t require them to fill out reports or any of that. I do think, though, that some elements of being a mentor, and I’m curious if you agree, do require availability and continuity to communication? How do you foster that with the Cool Aunt series. Rachel Thomas 22:25 Of course, that’s ideal. Going back to that idea of a parent, that’s someone for life. We aim for weekly check ins, and the kids, they have our number, so they can text us if they need to outside of our weekly scheduled check ins. The the more time, and the more consistency you can provide, the better. But just setting those expectations in the beginning, if you’re not able to, if it’s like, “You will be on my heart, and on my mind right now, with our schedule, we may check in with you every other week or even just once a month. But if something happens, something comes up, you can text us, you can look forward to telling us about it the next time we talk.” Just setting expectations and letting them know that even when you’re not available, it’s not because you don’t care, or you’re not thinking of them, it’s, “I’m human, and I have a schedule.” We’ve gone about that in different ways and some youth, there’s seasons where they want to talk more often because they’re going through something heavy, and then it’ll be less frequent, which is a good thing too. They’re more stable at that point. It’s all just individuals, looking at each person as an individual, and just catering to what’s in front of you on that day, with that person, and what they need in a mentor. As we look at the future of mentoring our youth and the resources with the Cool Aunt series, which I absolutely love, we have it in our child welfare program here in Orange County. How do you advise people who want to become involved to be mentors, to develop their skills? Can they go to your website? What what would be the best way for them to on ramp to become a mentor? I love that. Well, we only hire survivor leaders as mentors and we are a tiny drop in the bucket. I would recommend getting involved with a local organization like Big Brother, Big Sister, just going through the website for your local child welfare, they are probably begging for mentors and foster youth. Find what is in your community locally, because I guarantee there are children in your community that don’t have available, healthy, loving parents, and they would love to have a mentor. Whether it’s through Boys and Girls Club, the YMCA, creating an internship, and just calling a local youth club or DCFS and saying,” Hey, we’re open to this internship opportunity…” There’s so many ways to create inroads there. Sandra Morgan 25:26 I love how you always are so good at sharing with other organizations, not always just with one, meaning yours. Before we wind up here, though, how do people find you on the internet, and your program? Rachel Thomas 25:46 The Cool Aunt Series is thecoolauntseries.com, and my personal website is rachelcthomas.com. Sandra Morgan 25:58 Okay, so people can find you. And last, do you have a final thought, or message that you want people to leave with today? Rachel Thomas 26:12 I do. I think that, to whom much is given, much is required. I believe that more adults need to be involved with, in some level, doing more for our disadvantaged youth. I had no interaction with the child welfare system, it was so far and foreign to me. I could not imagine that there are kids who are being raised by people who are on a paycheck, and they’re bounced around from home to home, and they’ve never had any adult pour into them. It was a problem I didn’t need to deal with and I would say just wasn’t part of my reality. I think if every healthy, well meaning adult would just take on one child, I think our world would change dramatically. That is the call to action, is to become a mentor. Even just mentoring one youth will make a huge difference. Sandra Morgan 27:14 That’s my take away, just one. All right Rachel, we love you, we want to keep on having great conversations, and I’m excited that you’re coming to join us for Amplify in September. Rachel Thomas 27:31 Thank you. Thank you, thank you, excited. Sandra Morgan 27:35 If this is your first time to join the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, go on over to the endinghumantrafficking.org website. You’ll find more resources, you’ll find a link to the show notes for this conversation, opportunities to learn about the anti-human trafficking certificate program here at the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard. If you haven’t visited the site before, it’s a great first step to become a subscriber and every two weeks, you’ll get an email with the show notes for the new episode. We’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation.…
 
Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Corinne St. Thomas Stowers as the two discuss the role that fusion centers play in protecting a community and its children from sexual exploitation and online human trafficking. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers Corinne St. Thomas Stowers is the Supervising Tactical Intelligence Analyst assigned to the Orange County Intelligence Assessment Center. She is supporting the tactical analysis unit, primarily focused on the transnational organized crime and violent crime threats. Corinne has nearly 20 years of experience in law enforcement. She began with Westminster Police Department, the Orange County District Attorney’s Office in the Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit, and at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, working child sexual exploitation cases as a tactical cyber analyst. Corrine currently holds a Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice, and a master’s in social work. She was recognized in 2022 by the National Fusion Center Association as Intelligence Analyst of the Year, as well as the Medal of Valor recipient from the Orange County Sheriff’s Department for her role in Operation Red Zone, the largest Orange County Law Enforcement proactive human trafficking operation. Key Points Fusion Centers were established post 9/11 and function as sharing hubs between law enforcement and public and private sector partners. The information shared aids in disrupting threats of online exploitation and human trafficking across the nation. As parents and guardians, it is important to stay educated on the devices and applications that children are using and talk about technology every day. The parameters and boundaries of technology use in a home may change as a child ages and their maturity levels rise, however it is important to continually set parameters and boundaries to keep our children safe online. Parents or guardians may not learn about the dangers their child has faced online until they have already occurred. Because of this, it is necessary to be proactive and take note of changed behaviors their child is exhibiting and relay the information to law enforcement. To access resources and support, visit NCMEC, linked below. Resources Orange County Intelligence Assessment Center (OCIAC) National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) National Fusion Center Association (NFCA) NCMEC Cyber Tip Line Susan Kennedy Ensure Justice Plenary Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:14 Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women in Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #323, with Corinne St. Thomas Stowers. She is currently the Supervising Tactical Intelligence Analyst assigned to the Orange County Intelligence Assessment Center. The initials for that are OCIAC, OCIAC. So when we say OCIAC in the rest of the podcast, we’re talking about Orange County Intelligence Assessment Center, and she’s supporting the tactical analysis unit, primarily focused on the transnational organized crime and violent crime threats. Corinne has nearly 20 years of experience in law enforcement. She began with Westminster Police Department, the Orange County District Attorney’s Office in the Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit, and at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, working child sexual exploitation cases as a tactical cyber analyst. Corrine currently holds a Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice, and a master’s in social work. She was recognized in 2022 by the National Fusion Center Association as Intelligence Analyst of the Year, as well as the Medal of Valor recipient from the Orange County Sheriff’s Department for her role in Operation Red Zone, the largest Orange County Law Enforcement proactive human trafficking operation. Corrine, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 2:15 Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Sandra Morgan 2:17 I remember the first time you came to a human trafficking class here at Vanguard to teach and guest lecture. You’re still coming, you were in Ensure Justice just a couple months ago. Although this is our first podcast together, I’m thinking we’re going to do this more than once. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 2:37 Oh! I’m so excited to be here. I’ve always been such a huge supporter of Vanguard and the Center, and everything going on here, and it’s just great to be here today. Sandra Morgan 2:46 Well tell me, to start with, what is a fusion center? As soon as I heard that, I thought it was a culinary art school for Asian/Mexican food chef’s. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 3:02 Okay, yeah! I know, I think fusion centers, we do such incredible work across the nation. To give a little backstory to fusion centers, we were established post 9/11 as an information sharing conduit between local, state, and federal law enforcement, as well as the public and private sector partnerships. So it was a way for us to share information, timely, actionable, information to disrupt threats across the nation. We’re unique here in Orange County in that we have our own fusion center assigned to Orange County. We are the only fusion center in the United States that is assigned to one singular county, Sandra Morgan 3:39 I did not know that. I keep finding great things we’re doing here in Orange County. So a fusion center then, is like a place where we can understand a broad spectrum of data? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 3:57 It’s really kind of information that is ingested through the OCIAC from different avenues, whether it’s coming from the public or from law enforcement, and it’s analyzed, and then it’s shared with whoever may need to know that type of information. So it could be suspicious activity related to terrorism activity, it could be suspicious activity associated to drug trafficking or any other type of information that we think that there’s some partner that may need to know about that information. We review it, we analyze that information, and then share it with partners. Sandra Morgan 4:29 In our context right now, and for when you were at Ensure Justice in March, we’re talking about how do we build a better plan for protecting our community and especially our children, from online human trafficking, sexual exploitation, the NCMEC report that just came out, speak to that? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 4:52 Sure. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children does a phenomenal job with reviewing information in relation to a wide variety of topics that are juvenile based, and one of them is exploitation of children with online activity associated to it, because of their exploited children’s division, the information that they have. The report and the information that comes out, really shows the egregiousness of what’s happening with online activity in our kiddos and that the numbers are scary, they’re really frightening. And I always say, take data with a grain of salt. We really look at it as what’s going on online and how do we measure that? I know in our involvement with like law enforcement and reporting, is that there’s a lot of potential criminal activity associated with online activity and our kiddos. As kids are more well versed in applications and information online, and have the accessibility to social media and different platforms, the opportunity for possible criminal activity goes up, and I think those numbers start to reflect that a bit. Sandra Morgan 5:55 I’m not just a parent, I’m a grandparent, and I want to protect my kids. As I talk to other grandparents, and parents, this is a common concern. When I talk to them, they feel overwhelmed, and they want to understand how in the world they’re going to be able to keep their kids safe, because they learn about one app, and then three more pop up. They go listen to a speaker who has a book, and so they buy the book, but by the time they actually are reading it, they begin to understand that’s last year’s. How do I stay up to date right now? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 6:42 I think that’s such a great question, and I definitely receive similar based questions from the public when I’m talking to parents and guardians as well. The best kind of avenue for dealing with that, because it is so multifaceted, is that if we have the ability to provide devices and kids being on these applications, then the education component for ourselves as adults is really important. So I always encourage, get comfortable with the applications, look at the applications. As an adult, download them on your device, and maybe look and go through them. How do you log in? Or maybe take a look at all their terms of service, and the policies with these applications, and what they actually say, because there’s a lot of information there. I think that’s always a great little practice, is how many of us have actually looked at some of the terms of agreement for the service of some of these applications? In terms of your question of the evolution of applications, one day this one’s really popular, the next day it’s this one, is staying involved with technology. Reading articles, going on the applications and seeing what’s popular and doing the research on this, I think is incredibly important because Facebook has been around for a really, really long time. There’s been applications that got popular that have kind of calmed down a little bit and not as popular. The consistency of applications will stay there. I think it’ll just kind of wave between favoring certain apps versus others. For example, I would argue TikTok is incredibly popular right now, as is Instagram, and Snapchat and some of these other ones. I think that will stay consistent now for a little bit, those are the primary ones, it’s finding out what our kids are using that aren’t so popular. Because kids don’t always tell guardians and parents, “Hey, I’m also on this little app,” and they go, “I don’t even know anything about that application. That’s not one that’s well known.” Going on the App Store and looking at the apps that are being downloaded, and seeing, or proactively looking at the device and clicking on each application and seeing what some of those are. I always say that our kids know so much and we’re always playing catch up with our children, with our with our juvenile and our youth. They are the generation of knowing this. I’m going to date myself a little bit, but while I was working at the Westminster Police Department, I remember speaking with gang detectives, and I’d say, “You know, there’s some criminal information on MySpace,” and Derek was my boss then. Sandra Morgan 9:23 Oh wow, Derek Marsh, our Associate Director here at the Global Center. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 9:27 Yes! And that was very eye opening for law enforcement to see that kind of information on an application, on a platform like MySpace. It will continue to stay, just educating ourselves, I think is the best route. Sandra Morgan 9:40 As a parent, I’m listening and I’m thinking, “Okay, so we’re going to shut down all the apps, and that will keep my child safe.” Why am I wrong? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 9:53 Kids will always find a way onto technology, whether it’s in the educational institutions that they attend in their academic careers, it is a part of our everyday. We’re walking around with a computer in our hand at any given point. The minute we limit the accessibility in its entirety, it can be quite difficult to really manage that because a kid’s going to get on a device. I think the conversation lends to how do we prepare our youth? Or how do we talk in communities, about safety and parameters when operating technology and devices, I think could be a more effective route, because then we’re looking at it as we’re educating, and giving the tools, and equipping them to make good decisions as much as possible. If some decisions that are made that are harmful, or damaging, how to report, who to talk to, how to share that information, instead of free range on the application and “good luck.” Sandra Morgan 10:56 For me, I have to study this. I don’t have enough time to do all of that research. I do have to teach my kids good principles. One of the things that you talked about at Ensure Justice was a digital footprint. You actually made me stop and think, because I realized how I don’t try to protect my digital footprint, and that could actually, when I’m posting, how can that actually put my grandkids at risk? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 11:32 I did say that. I’m glad you heard that. Digital footprint is a concept of, you know, you have this presence on the Internet. You can either have an active digital footprint, or what we would refer to as a passive digital footprint. An active would be, you have a Facebook account, you have a LinkedIn you are openly posting different activities, and maybe you have a blog or a podcast, or things like that, right? So that would be your active digital footprint. Your passive digital footprint is referred to as, what are others posting about you? What are family members sharing about you? But passive can also be you attended a church event and they took a group picture, and then they listed everybody that was at that event. Speaking at Ensure Justice, I didn’t post about myself at Ensure Justice, but maybe somebody took a photo and said, “I’m learning about child exploitation online,” and now, that would be your passive digital footprint. We always have to be cognizant of that and understand for ourselves and our children and our family members, what are our parameters? What are our left and right limits, and vocalizing that in appropriate spaces? The example I give is, I don’t post my children on social media or online, and so I ask family members, please don’t share their faces on social media. That’s something that my husband and I decided on before they were even born. People at the time thought, ‘How can you not?’ I think now the tides have turned and other people do that as well. Vocalizing those concerns or those thoughts, and standing true to that was always helpful, and it has been for us at least. We don’t know what social media is going to be like in 10, 20, 30 years. Sandra Morgan 13:20 I think when I felt the most challenged is when you started talking about a parent or a grandparent posting ‘Happy Birthday’ greeting, “On this day, 10 years ago, John Joseph Smith was born.” It’s like, you’ve given the full name and the date of birth. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 13:43 Yeah, and usually the area in which they were born too because sometimes that location information is easily analyzed and understood. Sometimes, and maybe with my work experience I have a different lens sometimes, but the oversharing of location information, our personal information, and our kids personal information, it may not always resonate how much we are truly actually sharing on the internet, and how far reaching that can go. Sandra Morgan 14:12 And we’re just so trustworthy of all of our Facebook friends,- Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 14:16 I know Sandra Morgan 14:17 -that I don’t know, really very well. I’m rethinking all of this. Where are our kids, based on thinking about their age and the social platforms? Do they move as they develop and go into adolescence and young adulthood? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 14:40 Absolutely. I give the example of, my daughter believes that iPads only work on airplanes. My husband and I kind of give a little fib that they have to connect to airplanes to actually work, and we’re going to ride that until she finds out otherwise. But she’s seven, and that works for us right now. As she ages, that parameter gets changed and modified accordingly, and having those conversations about online activity. As a family, we decide what those parameters are and what that looks like to keep our kiddos safe online, and that can change as they age and to their maturity levels, and their ability to digest some of that. If I had it my way, they would never be on social media. Sandra Morgan 15:27 Wow. What are some of the risks of kids being online? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 15:34 I would say that there’s always the ability with people that may not have good intentions, or may have criminal intentions, to connect with our kids. We talk about keeping our children safe, of not walking alone on the streets or talking to strangers or approaching vehicles that we don’t know, and unfortunately, there’s individuals online attempting to contact kids to do harm to them, as simplified as I can put it. We have to be cautious of that and understand that. There’s a great video clip that I came across where this girl is in a room and her mom’s saying, “Okay, five minutes, dinnertime, come on downstairs,” and it sounds like a very normal night. All these individuals, these men, are walking into her bedroom one at a time, and they’re standing around her bed. There’s about 10 of them and she’s on her phone. It’s to give the visual representation of, we wouldn’t invite strangers into our kiddos bedrooms, the same thing goes with our online activity and our kiddos. We’re having those safety mechanisms in place to keep our kids safe. Sandra Morgan 16:36 But kids don’t feel like they’re at risk, they have no fear, and I think that’s one of the pieces that we haven’t figured out. When I was teaching my kids to be safe in leaving the house, I taught them how to look both ways, I made them hold my hand, and they could see the car coming that would hit them if they stepped out in front of it. I think we’re trying to teach kids concern about something coming that they can’t see. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 17:08 I definitely would agree with that. It’s really hard to conceptualize the opportunity for danger with our kids. As some of us knowmin this profession, they may not have the physical development to even understand the ramifications of their actions online. Their brains aren’t even fully developed, their emotions are not developed to that capacity and to that level. That’s why as parents, and guardians, and loved ones, being proactive and protecting them from those applications, similarly to a driver’s license. We would never allow an 11 year old to hop in the front seat of a car and say “good luck. ” Sandra Morgan 17:49 Yes, we know we need to be concerned, but when do I as a parent, as a caregiver, as a teacher? What kind of behaviors should I be looking for so that I’m not constantly like the helicopter parent? “What are you doing right?” But what are those keys to when I need to actually step in? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 18:12 You know, some of the research shows that you can notice maybe a change in behavior, emotional patterns, the dependency on devices depending on their age, the disassociation from previous activity that they loved and were invested in, maybe there’s something going on. Unfortunately, with certain types of criminal activity associated to online activity, you may not find out until something really bad happens, unfortunately. I’ve talked to many parents that have shared with me, “We had no clue until everything just got laid out in front of us, and that this had been going on for months,” whatever that was. You’re right, the helicopter thing, it’s not always going to work. But nobody knows your kid better than the parent or the guardian, and so those behavior changes may be helpful in indicating that something might be going on. Sandra Morgan 18:55 We have put a lot of responsibility on the caregivers in a child’s life. What are you doing as an analyst, to keep my kids safe? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 19:18 First of all, I say this often in law enforcement, it is an incredible privilege to get to do the work that I do. I am incredibly humbled to work in Orange County and law enforcement. We have exceptional law enforcement in Orange County, working tirelessly every day to keep our kids safe in different capacities, and the public safe. Law enforcement in Orange County is unique, we are exceptional, we’ve been referred to as the gold standard, that we are on the forefront. We are very victim centered, and not just in human trafficking, but in a lot of our types of crime, and we are up with technology. Talking to law enforcement, not only education, talking to each rather about what’s working and what’s not working, but utilizing technology to help us do our job better, is very well supported. I think that’s been tremendously helpful to help investigators do their job, help analysts like myself do our job better. We have the support here in Orange County for that. Sandra Morgan 20:19 Let’s look at some of the numbers, the things that you see that come across your screen in a day of work. Let’s look first at CSAM. What is it and how do we stop it? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 20:36 Sure. So CSAM is Child Sexual Abuse Material. As we know, as I know very well, with human trafficking, language matters and choice language is very important when we are referring to different types of elements when it relates to crimes against children. CSAM is a term that can be associated to child pornography, and I would say it’s a very good indicator of what it is, it’s the child sexual abuse production of material, and it’s shared. It can be in video form, image form, livestreamed, things like that. We have seen just an increase in volume of the amount of child sexual abuse material online, nationwide and across the world. Sandra Morgan 21:18 When you say there’s an increase, instead of 100, there’s 1000? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 21:23 I believe from my last review of the information, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children said they reviewed about 25 million images per year of possible Child Sexual Abuse imagery. Sandra Morgan 21:38 Here in Orange County, you have technology, and when you are trying to protect kids here, do you connect with NCMEC? How do you do that? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 21:52 The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children will share information with law enforcement partners, and then those law enforcement partners may reach out to us to ask for assistance when reviewing a case. It may be looking at certain information as it relates to the offender, it could be looking at information of where somebody may be located to help disrupt possible child exploitation, it may also be like a conduit of information sharing. Law enforcement may contact us and say, “Do you guys have a point of contact at this agency? We have something going on there,” and there’s no cold call. We connect to people very quickly and efficiently so that law enforcement can go out and do their job, and disrupt something that may be going on at that location. Sandra Morgan 22:34 I love using the word disrupt, where this is better than waiting until something happens and trying to rescue/recover all of that. Disrupt. Let’s talk just briefly about the pathway from online enticement to child sexual abuse material. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 22:58 Sure. What we’ve seen the material, through different organizations, support some of this pattern is that these individuals may go online, they find social media associated to a possible juvenile, and it may be open. Maybe the kiddo’s profile is public, or maybe it’s private, but it’ll say, “I go to the XYZ high school, I play club soccer at this location, and I’m from this location,” and the offender may then message the child victim, may send them a possible direct message and start essentially grooming them online, building a trust or rapport with the child victim at that point. That may take shorter or longer depending on the child victim, the possible child victim. Then at some point, the grooming will go into, “Hey, can you send me a picture? Can you just go and take a video?,” and we can have an eight hour conversation about the ‘why,’ an image or a video may get sent. As soon as that video or image gets sent, the offender may say, “Okay, now you’re going to pay me X amount of dollars in a gift card or transfer it to me, and if you don’t, I’m going to share this with your entire school, or I’m going to share this with your faith based groups or your community.” And oftentimes they do, they’ll forward then the images, and at that point, maybe the child victim will then let a guardian, or law enforcement, or a parent know, “Hey, this is going on.” Sandra Morgan 24:28 We’re talking about sextortion now. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 24:30 Yes. So it starts off as this online enticement of the kiddo turning into sextortion, at that point. Sandra Morgan 24:37 One of the conversations I’ve been having in the law enforcement and Child Services community, is how that sextortion of kids who don’t have access to any resources has actually morphed into forced criminality. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 24:59 That’s a great term. I know working in human trafficking, on the task force, that forced criminality can be a huge element of both labor and sex trafficking. For example, when they may not have any other option and they resort to different types of crime as a survival mechanism. In this case, I think this is just the exploitation of children, and the opportunistic moment to accept funds from them, extort them for more money. Oftentimes what we see, is that once we identify where this offender may be located, very often they’re located in other countries. Sandra Morgan 25:38 That’s just unbelievable, to find that a perpetrator may not even be physically near, but they’re threatening physical harm. How do you discriminate between reality and virtual reality? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 25:57 I think the trauma is still the same. I think there’s still emotional and psychological trauma that goes on when extorting a child with sexual abuse imagery in exchange for funds. There’s so much, “Is this my fault? Did I do something wrong? Maybe I had an opportunity of learning, with my parents, about what’s appropriate behavior online. Oh my gosh, look what happened now.” So talking about, this is not the kids fault, this is not their fault, and really understanding that dynamic. Sandra Morgan 26:31 When I see a newspaper article about this, this is a teaching moment with my kids. This happened to this child, it wasn’t this child’s fault. To make sure it doesn’t happen with you, we’re going to talk about tech every day. That kind of became a hashtag at Ensure Justice: ‘Talk Tech Every Day,’ because kids need to make it a part of their normal conversation with parents, not something they’re ashamed of, and when they have questions they don’t feel comfortable going to parental figures, teachers. We have to create a normalness about that ‘Talk TechEevery Day.’ I’m really horrified because we do keep coming back to Orange County. Listeners to this podcast, this is relevant. We have listeners in 148 countries, but you brought a statistic to Ensure Justice that blew me away. It was one year of commercial sex advertisements associated to possible juveniles, right here in Orange County. I know, from working with child welfare, that we generally have 70, 80, 90 Orange County residents who have been victims of CSEC, which is horrible, but I did not know just how prolific the recruiting is. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 28:15 Yeah, so the numbers here that you see are in relation to sexual advertisements that are all publicly available on the internet. It’s not the dark net, it’s not some secret place on the internet, it’s all publicly available. And it’s a tool to analyze the ability of what is the likelihood that this is a possible kid? Not every single one is a confirmed child or a potential child victim, but I would argue it does shine light on the issue that the problem is everywhere. We have it sitting right here in our backyard, every single day. To look at and see, I’ve had law enforcement and other professionals say that number can fluctuate. Of course it can fluctuate, but if we have one child victim- Sandra Morgan 29:04 Exactly, I want to do something about it. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 29:05 Right? Yeah, if we have one child victim, I would argue we have the responsibility to help in that capacity. I think that number, again, it can change, it’s an analytic review of a problem, it is not concrete, but it gives the idea that it is here, and that we have it going on. Sandra Morgan 29:26 For me, when I look at numbers like this, I think of trends. I’m a pediatric nurse is my background. Taking a kid’s temperature, people will say, “Well that thermometer is too old school and this tech is not dependable.” But I know the kid is sick and that’s all I need to know. When I see a number, that in a year in Orange County, there’s 8,795 sex advertisements that may be connected to commercially sexually exploiting a child, I want to do something about it. I think that’s what this calls our community to do. Oh my goodness, there is so much that we can do, and one of the things that I would like you to speak to is how do parents, caregivers, teachers, get better equipped to equip children to self protect? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 30:35 That’s such a great question, and I think it is an incredibly dynamic explanation in the sense of, similarly, the way we’d look at addressing violent crime or a human trafficking case, it’s incredibly multifaceted. There has to be a prevention measure to it. There has to be education, there has to be training, both, to the parent, guardian, loved one, of how to keep our kids safe. There’s so many incredible organizations that have a ton of resources and information. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has fantastic resources as well. Doing the work and learning, and showing up to events that provide some of the exposure to the information, is just incredibly helpful. Having those conversations, having the hard conversations or learning how to have the hard conversations about appropriate behavior online. How do we want to present ourselves having these conversations? You have that element. The other dynamic part of it is that if something were to happen, what information do you have to report it to law enforcement? Who do you report it to? What information would you need to obtain from the child to support law enforcement efforts? Then after the fact, what resources are out there to support somebody that may have been on that journey, or that family that has been affected by sextortion, or online enticement, or child sexual abuse material? There’s lots of organizations that the support doesn’t stop the minute you report it. That’s kind of when the support starts. Sandra Morgan 32:04 We’re going to put a link to the cyber tip line in the show notes, because that’s a great place to start. Somebody said, “Well, why isn’t there like a hotline?” Because this is online, so you need to report it online. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 32:18 Yeah. I would say if there’s anything going on, always report to law enforcement that information. Your law enforcement partners are there to support and ingest that information, so law enforcement is always a great place to start. The National Center, you can go on their website and report something that may be going on online, and they will then funnel it to the appropriate places as well. There’s lots of avenues to report information. Sandra Morgan 32:45 If you’re advising a family on how to keep their kids safe, the first place they go is where? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 32:56 NCMEC, I would say. As a former analyst there, they have incredible resources on their website, they have a whole section associated to educating elementary and middle school aged kiddos, they have resources for parents should something happen. They’re just a really great resource for anything in relation to this, but that’s not a silo. There’s, like I said, if you go online and you type in child exploitation nonprofits, there’s quite a few out there that do some incredible work in support of this, but always look into the organization and make sure. Sandra Morgan 33:34 I know, I know. Let’s make sure that they’re doing what they say. I do love partnering with NCMEC, we had Susan Kennedy at Ensure Justice this last year, and she’s incredible. It was scary because the numbers were startling, but I think that’s where we start. We have to understand that this is not an invisible problem, there are signs and symptoms, we need to take the temperature. That is what I love about what you do Corinne, because you give us those numbers, and it is like taking a temperature, itt’s a trend. You’re not going to be able to show me 8,795 examples of CSEC, but you are showing me that there is a demand. People are advertising, there is a demand to purchase children. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 34:32 That’s such a great point, is the demand side of this. The scary idea that there are individuals looking to follow through on this criminal activity, that are actively engaging with kiddos online where their end goal is to sexually abuse them, is quite frightening. Sandra Morgan 34:50 We want to be prepared because when we are prepared, we don’t live in fear, but we are cautious. I think there’s a difference between living in fear as a parent, you pass that on to your kids, and being cautious, I think I’m going to start using our conversation from Ensure Justice: Talk Tech Every Day, and that means I’m going to invite you back for another podcast so we can talk tech more. One of the things I want to talk about in the future, is how do we engage middle school and high school kids in more peer to peer prevention? Every time I talk to a group of adolescents, they don’t take it and apply it to themselves. They say, “Oh, I wish you’d talk to my sister,” or “You need to talk to my cousin or my neighbor.” So let’s take advantage of this natural inclination to deflect and “It doesn’t happen to me,” which is part of teen invincibility, but they can keep each other safe, because they don’t think that their sister, their cousin, their classmate, is as safe as they are. How do we build that kind of community? Be thinking about that when you come back next time. You’re coming up on 20 years in law enforcement, and a great deal of it in this particular space, is there anything you’ve changed your mind about? Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 36:36 Changed my mind? I would say I definitely refer to this work as pulling one grain of sand out of the ocean at a time, that’s what it feels like. It can feel quite overwhelming. Even though you’re taking that one grain of sand out of the ocean at a time, that one grain of sand is somebody’s whole world, and so the work that I do is an incredible privilege. As I stated earlier, I’m absolutely honored to even impact one kiddo in my backyard. Sandra Morgan 37:05 And one kid, like you said, is an entire life, a family, and a community. Wow, eell stated. Well, we’ve been talking about cyber exploitation with Corinne St. Thomas Stowers, we’re going to have her back. If this is your first time to listen to our podcast, go on over to endinghumantrafficking.org. On our website, you can find a link to the show notes, presentations she did at Ensure Justice, and if you haven’t visited the website before, it’s a great first step to become a subscriber so that you’ll receive an email every time a new episode drops, which is twice a month. I’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation. Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 37:58 Thanks, Sandie.…
 
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