Chronic Stress: Connecting the Dots between Layoffs and Burnout with Cait Donovan

Nerd Journey

Recent episodes and tech industry layoff trends made us wonder – is there a connection between layoff events and burnout? And if there is, are there differences in how burnout shows up in people impacted by layoffs, in those who remain, and in leaders?

In episode 299 burnout expert, coach, keynote speaker, and podcaster Cait Donovan returns to help us connect the dots. We start by defining burnout and building up from there. You’ll hear thoughts on chronic stress, emotional processing, burnout risk factors, and burnout protection factors. Cait also reminds us that there is a distinct line between managers and employees that has become very blurry in the workplace.

Original Recording Date: 09-28-2024

Topics – Defining Burnout, Connecting Dots between Layoffs and Burnout, Emotional Toil and Processing, Chronic Stress and Capacity Noticers, Taking Stock of Burnout Risks and Protections, Burnout in Leadership, Boundaries and Closing Thoughts

2:08 – Defining Burnout

• Cait Donovan is a burnout expert, a coach, and a keynote speaker. She is also the host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast.
  • Cait was a practicing acupuncturist for 15 years and then burned out. She would later pursue a degree in biobehavioral health to understand what stress does to our bodies.
  • Cait spends her days podcasting, keynote speaking, and doing corporate training. She’s also working on a second book. Be sure to check out Cait’s first book, [The Bouncebackability Factor: End Burnout, Gain Resilience, and Change the World].(https://www.amazon.com/Bouncebackability-Factor-Burnout-Resilience-Change/dp/1735194905).
  • If you missed the previous episodes we recorded with Cait, check out:
    • Episode 214 – Across the Patterns of Burnout with Cait Donovan (1/2)
    • Episode 215 – The Beautiful Right Turns with Cait Donovan (2/2)
• What is the definition of burnout?
  • Cait likes to start with the World Health Organization (WHO) definition of burnout. Burnout by their definition is an occupational hazard / phenomenon (neither a mental nor a physical health diagnosis). According to WHO, there are 3 components to burnout that must all be present:
    • Physical and emotional exhaustion
    • Cynicism and detachment
    • Feeling a lack of productivity or lack of impact related to your work
    • The above is a little generic and only deals with the workplace. Cait has found chronic stress is more pervasive than just the workplace and has much to do with how we were taught to interact with the world, which may impact many areas of our lives.
  • Cait’s definition of burnout is “chronic stress that has led to a decline in functioning of your body, mind, soul, spirit…over an extended period of time so slow that you didn’t notice it happening until it was like, ‘where did I get here? What am I doing? What is this life, and why am I so miserable?”

5:00 – Connecting Dots between Layoffs and Burnout

• Many people are looking at the tech industry right now, see the layoffs happening, and they get worried / anxious / scared. After recording other layoff focused episodes with Kat Troyer and Liz Bronson from RealJobTalk, we thought it would be interesting to explore this topic with Cait through the lens of how this trends up or down with burnout.
  • Be sure to check out Episode 290 – Reduction in Force: Navigating Layoff Trends in Tech with Real Job Talk (1/2) and Episode 291 – Layoffs and Job Market Impacts: Experience with RIFs Preferred with Real Job Talk (2/2).
• Think about the person seeing the layoffs from afar (reading about it, knowing people who have been impacted). Can anxiety from seeing this kind of thing be enough to start you down the burnout path?
  • Cait says not on its own, and she highlights Burnout Risk Factors (BRFs) and Burnout Protection Factors (BPFs).
  • Many of the burnout risk factors (BRFs) have nothing to do with a person’s current situation. They can be genetic or epigenetic, from culture, from propaganda, or other things happening to us for large portions of life.
    • We often have very little control over how we might interact with these things unless we have been intentional in our awareness of such risk factors.
    • Genetics represent a more stable risk because they aren’t going to change. Epigenetics is a different story.
  • If someone has a large number of risk factors (BRFs) and a small number of protective factors, a layoff could throw them over the edge. Because burnout is the result of a long period of chronic stress, a layoff event may not be chronic enough at the moment to be a cause of burnout (perhaps a low contributor).
• Consider people who have been impacted by a layoff. Since Cait does a lot of coaching, what does she see happen in this situation? Do people often find a layoff is a realization of being burned out and feel relieved, or can it be the event that triggers burnout in someone?
  • Cait says both of the above are possibilities based on perception and a number of other factors.
  • "…If people already know that they’re burnt out, a layoff is like the best thing that ever happened to you. You’re…so grateful because you were never going to make that choice by yourself…. There are so many reasons we stay in jobs that no longer suit us. But if you are in a job that no longer suits you and you get laid off and you don’t have to be the one to end the relationship, it’s a relief…. Probably for the first time since a free summer when you were like 12 you’ve got 2, 3, maybe even 6 months of paid time off…. So for some people this is a really big relief. " – Cait Donovan
    • In a layoff situation there is normally some kind of compensation or severance package associated with it.
  • Some people might not be aware of being on the edge of burnout. If the layoff happens at the same time as several other stressful events (a family member gets a discouraging health diagnosis, etc.), it can eliminate any sense of stability even with the money one would get in a severance package.
    • “This eliminates a sense of stability that they don’t have enough of right now anyway and can really cause people to stumble.” – Cait Donovan
  • Cait says we need to remember people are holistic systems as we talk through this.
• Nick thinks if we add in a tough job market, maybe the scales tilt toward burnout being a result of the sudden layoff event.
  • Cait has a number of clients who work in technology, and several of them have lost their jobs.
  • Statistics seem clear that long term artificial intelligence will create more jobs than it replaces. If we know this is coming and are given time (because of a layoff), we should consider using that time to make ourselves more attractive to the needs of employers.
  • While there are no guarantees, Cait has seen people approach this in a couple of ways:
    • Learn what is coming next so make yourself more marketable moving forward.
    • Some people lose interest in working in the field entirely. Cait gives the example of one client seeking to become an artist. Perhaps there are other ways to use your skills and your hobbies and continue learning.
    • “So, if you are not already in this crazy situation where the layoff makes you sort of break down, there’s actually a huge amount of possibility for tech workers moving forward…. Tech work over…especially the last 5ish years has been so intense…. It had to pop at some point. So here we are. It’s popping. We knew this was going to happen. It’s now here. And the question is what do you want to do moving forward? …I do believe that there’s a huge amount of opportunity in this world. It’s just different than what it has been.” – Cait Donovan
    • Cait also says if you need to take the time you are given to sit on the couch and rest, take the time. It’s ok. There’s no mandate that says you have to decide what to do right away.

13:14 – Emotional Toil and Processing

• Nick thinks there’s a step before the above to process the emotional toil of a layoff event. How is Cait helping her clients with this?
  • Cait says some people are relieved. Actually, most people are relieved.
  • If someone had this happen and was not relieved, Cait would help them focus on what is under their control.
    • Start with writing a new resume / cv based on what you know. Consider using ChatGPT to help you write a version for a non-technical world / role because it can open your eyes to possibilities you do not immediately see.
    • Take a look at your money and where it’s going to determine if it is serving the life you want. Pull back from spending in areas that are not serving the life you want to remove added pressures. This is a great time to figure out what your actual needs are.
    • Looking at the money you need to live the life you truly desire ends up being less than people think according to Cait.
    • Do the math, and set yourself up on some kind of budget. Cait has used YNAB (You Need a Budget) for her business and finds it really helpful. The tool suggests, for example, that you set aside money monthly to be able to pay for yearly expenses when they arise.
    • “A lot of times that’s a fear and a safety area that we can add some sense of safety in by giving people a little more control. Let’s just look at it.” – Cait Donovan, on taking inventory of your money and where you spend it
    • “You’re emotionally processing while you’re doing this because…when you do a cv you’re starting to see…what are the possibilities? What things are available to me? Instead of thinking, there’s nothing left. I’m never going to be able to do anything…. We’re processing that by flipping the script. We’re processing your sense of safety by letting you know where it is or where it isn’t and what needs to really happen….” – Cait Donovan, on processing the layoff
    • Cait shares the story of having two clients who were spouses do the money map exercise after being really concerned about job loss. Both of them lost their jobs, and both of them were fine as a result of doing the exercise (bills were covered).
    • Starting with practical things can be what shifts our emotional state rather than working through an emotion while the stressor is still there. Cait’s suggestion here is to shift the stressor to work through the emotion.
    • Looking through finances is a great exercise for anyone listening. Do it regularly. Cait suggests doing it quarterly. You don’t need a full day if you’re using budgeting software. It takes a glance at where things are. Looking at how much we’re spending across all areas can help us see, for example, that we have too many subscription services and some could be eliminated.
    • Cait loves to read and pays for Kindle Unlimited. While she could use a library system like Libby, she loves the convenience of Kindle. It would be one of the first things to go if she needed to trim down subscription spend.

19:32 – Chronic Stress and Capacity Noticers

• Perhaps there is a similar impact when we take a baseline of stressors. If we don’t have a baseline, we might not know.
  • In both group and individual coaching, Cait works with clients on something she calls capacity noticers.
    • “They are really different from person to person…really different. But most people have no idea what their mental, emotional, or energetic capacity is…. So we have to figure out, financially and not – what is my capacity? And where am I overriding it regularly?” – Cait Donovan, on capacity noticers
    • It takes time for people to uncover capacity noticers.
  • Cait gives the example of working on a computer and needing to put in eye drops at 11:30 and 3:30.
    • People might think it is just their eyes because they forgot to think of themselves as a holistic system.
    • The above is your body’s cue to rest your eyes a little and take a break. It means your capacity has been crossed.
• Chronic stress impacts you slowly over time, and we make adjustments for it.
  • Cait describes a problem that could start with a sore hamstring.
  • Suppose someone then leans to their other side for a few days to take the pressure off the hurt hamstring. Maybe this leads to right hip pain and back soreness followed by neck pain and migraines over a span of a couple of months.
    • The root cause was not addressing the overworked hamstring, but it might seem to the person like a migraine, for example, came out of nowhere.
  • Cait does not expect people to recognize the small shifts over time, especially for people who burn out.
    • Our bodies are designed to make modifications / work around the small agitations like the pain described above.
    • Cait mentions something called interoception, which is our body’s ability to feel a need a respond to it appropriately. These needs can be conscious and subconscious (eating when we are hungry, using the restroom when we need to, etc. would be the more conscious forms). When emotions show up the body also responds to them.
    • “In those that experience chronic stress…we tend to have lower interoceptive skill and awareness than other people. So not only does your body modify naturally. But if you are someone who, for whatever reason,…it’s been taught out of you to listen to your body (i.e. your brain didn’t develop in a way that allows you to listen), then you won’t hear any of those things until you’re being knocked over.” – Cait Donovan, on interoception and chronic stress
    • Cait says people who are burnt out should cut themselves some slack because it isn’t their fault that they did not notice.

24:34 – Taking Stock of Burnout Risks and Protections

• For those who may be in an environment where layoffs have happened, what can they be paying attention to from a stressor standpoint in order to do something about it faster?
  • “So here’s another thing that we need to talk about. If you are in a situation that for some reason is toxic or sort of impossible to ignore, you can’t meditate your way out of it…. You can meditate all day and all night, but if you are swimming in chemicals they are going to affect your body. If you are in a toxic situation in a workplace where everyone is feeling fear, that is going to enter your body too. So the question here for me is how mindful can you be of what emotions you are bringing with you to the communal work soup? Are you adding to the flavor of the broth, or are you making it impossible to eat? …You can’t totally protect yourself if there’s a pervasive fear in the office. So what you have to know is whether or not there’s a pervasive fear in the office. And if there is a pervasive fear and it’s not going away and leadership is not stepping up to increase trust and to increase psychological safety and to calm this fear…you have got to get moving. You can’t stay in a situation like that…. Sometimes the only answer is to get out…. People don’t want to hear that. People want to hear that they can do enough to take care of themselves to manage the situation. But you are not the situation. The situation is bigger than you. And you can’t manage everybody else’s emotions. And you can’t manage the level of safety. And you can’t manage what your work is going to require and what the stakeholders want. You can’t manage any of that. You have no control over it.” – Cait Donovan
    • Cait says we can measure heart waves up to 8-10 feet outside the body.
    • Cait mentioned her husband was near Chernobyl when it happened and had to take iodine for a while as a result.
    • We can exercise and sleep well and do other things to become more resilient. But that resiliency will only last so long based on the environment you’re in.
• Nick thinks this is hard for people to hear, especially when they see a tough job market.
  • “You have to know that the choice that you’re making is to accept that your body is in a state of chronic stress, which means you need to build up as many burnout protection factors as you possibly can…. You are going to bed and waking up at the same time every day. You are spending time outside during dusk or dawn so that your hormonal cascade is working properly. You are focused on getting the right amount of water and electrolytes and all of those things into your body. You are eating well. You are managing your emotional health…. If you are going to stay in that situation you have got to do ALL of the things to last as long as you can…. If that’s your only option, you have got to up everything else.” – Cait Donovan
    • People need different levels of burnout protection factors to begin with.
    • Cait is going to get sunburned without sunscreen. It’s not a judgement but how she is built. Burnout protection factors are called BPFs for a reason because some of us need more of them than others.
    • If you need a higher level of protection factors already, it’s going to be harder to increase the level of protection by very much. And people also have to reduce risk factors.
    • There are many possible burnout protection factors and burnout risk factors, and it might be challenging to identify all of them without outside help. You need to understand what your needs are for standard, average health to see if you have room to add protection factors. And you also would need to remove / reduce the risk factors.
  • If the biggest risk factor is being in a specific environment, then you would land on getting out. But it might not be the biggest burnout risk factor.
    • Cait gives an example scenario of a stress inducing home situation which might need to be addressed so you can stay at your job.
    • This goes back to addressing the holistic life of a person and thinking of them as a system. We need to take a 360-degree look.
  • "We need to up our burnout protection factors and reduce our burnout risk factors as much as we can if we’re going to stay some place. In order to do that, you’ve got to be aware of what they are. So you have to do inventory. What really fuels me? What really drains me? Those are the basic questions… Draw a line down the middle of a paper. Start making a list…. It’s a phenomenal place to start, and most people, again, just like with finances, never stop to take stock of this. " – Cait Donovan

32:25 – Burnout in Leadership

• Is it more difficult for people managers / people leaders to keep burnout protection factors higher than the stressors and risks because of the nature of their position?
  • Cait says yes and that leaders are having a hard time right now.
  • “Mid-managers have long been known to have the highest stress levels in most companies…every time. Because they are getting slammed from both sides. Their leadership is slamming them, and the employees are slamming them. Everything is their fault. It’s either them or HR…. There’s no getting around that. One of those two groups of people is at fault for everything in an office, which of course is not true. But this is how it’s often displayed.” – Cait Donovan
  • Cait feels mid-level managers should have outside support at almost all times in their role. This support could be therapy, coaching, mentorship, or something else.
    • “I honestly don’t believe that you can make it in that position well, be successful at it, and support people the way that you really want to if you don’t have support yourself…. Get somebody. Get something…. Do anything to have a space that is supportive for you. You absolutely need it.” – Cait Donovan, advice for mid-level managers
  • Nick suggests managers could certainly use support if they have to be the ones to execute a layoff event, especially if they were not prepared to do it.
    • Cait says this is part of the job and that the leader should prepare for it as best they can.
  • Going back to a broader view of leadership in general…
    • Over the last 20 years, leadership has drastically changed, but leaders haven’t changed so much over that period. Some leaders at the top do not mesh well with our current world, and they are getting criticized for it.
    • Some of our current business leaders learned specific management and leadership styles in school that might have been hierarchical and authoritative (methods considered successful at the time).
    • “The demand right now is for leaders to show up more authentically, to have more vulnerability, to show more empathy. I think…we are in the midst of this major shift for leaders, and I think it’s been incredibly hard for them…. If you want to stay in a leadership position, then you need to learn how to shift out of this hierarchical system…. For a lot of corporate America, this is not working anymore.” – Cait Donovan
• Is the mismatch in the needs of employees from their leaders the largest contributor to burnout culture?
  • Cait says it is a big contributor and says one of the top 6 contributors to burnout in the workplace is a values mismatch, which can happen on 3 different levels:
    • A mismatch between a company’s spoken or written values and their values in action is one level. Are they (the company) espousing the values they claim to? When this is off, there is a lack of trust within the company. A lack of trust leads to a lack of safety which leads to stress.
    • The next is a mismatch between a manager / leader and an employee. Having differing values than your immediate boss makes it really hard to feel productive and impactful at your job. Feeling lack of impact and productivity at your job are major burnout factors.
    • There can also be a values mismatch between a person and the company where they work. If you feel the things your company is doing are in opposition to / against how you believe the world should function, that will be a massive burnout factor for you. The other two factors will be factors for the culture of the job, and this one specifically will be an individual burnout factor.
• Can the mid-level manager, with support, prevent their team from burning out if there is a mismatch from mid-level management upward?
  • Cait says no.
  • Cait gives a frequent keynote called “Dismantling Burnout: How Leaders and Teams Can Work Together to Overcome Burnout.”
    • This keynote speaks to the lines of responsibility for both leadership and employees. For example, what is leadership responsible for, and what are they not responsible for?
    • “While it’s important for leadership now to have more vulnerability and empathy and the soft skills are becoming more and more and more important…it’s not your leader’s job to be your therapist. It’s not your leader’s job to understand every single thing that’s going on in your life. It’s not your leader’s job to be the person you cry on their shoulder. It’s not your leader’s job to be your best friend in the workplace. That’s not your leader’s job. Your leader’s job is to create a sense of psychological safety for you as best as they can, and then the rest of the stuff that you bring with you to the workplace is up to you…. A leader can only do so much about your stuff. That’s not a leader’s job. A leader’s job is the workplace not the worker.” – Cait Donovan
    • Cait highlights a podcast episode called The Workplace is a Trauma Recycling Center. Each day we go into work and bring things from the rest of our lives with us.
    • We get triggered by things or annoyed by things that may not affect other people. We bring the rules we were taught over the course of our lives. All of this is creating conflict.
    • It’s hard for first time managers out there, especially right now.
  • Nick references an episode of Cait’s podcast with guest Daisy Auger-Dominguez called [Burnt Out Leaders Lead Burnt Out Teams](Daisy Auger-Dominguez).
    • Cait says it isn’t that leaders should not care about their people. We should understand that leaders are not there to act as therapists.
    • Our leaders can absolutely show us empathy and make accommodations for us.
    • “I have seen the power of leadership when you know that a leader has your back. But what a leader can’t do is go in and solve your problems. They can give you space. They can give understanding. They can create accommodations (as much as they can within the system they work in)…but then you’ve still got to work out your stuff. If you’re granted the time and the space, then your job is to work out the stuff. It’s not their job.” – Cait Donovan
    • Right now, the expectations of workers are changing and demanding much more empathy and emotional intelligence from leaders. Cait feels there will be a time when the pendulum swings back closer toward the middle.
    • Often times people who do their jobs well are promoted to leadership, but doing your job well doesn’t mean you can be an effective leader.
    • Managers and leaders definitely need more training. They need more emotional intelligence just like the rest of us. Cait feels being a leader right now is harder because some of the lines have blurred / are blurrier.
    • “We need to figure out where the lines are, and I think leaders don’t know that right now. I think employees don’t know that right now, and I think everybody wants everybody else to be doing more.” – Cait Donovan

42:29 – Boundaries and Closing Thoughts

• How can we set boundaries in a world where we are being asked to do more?
  • “You can’t make boundaries for things that you don’t have control over. If you decide you’re not going to do something, then you’re also deciding that you’ll deal with the consequences of not doing something. That’s the boundary. You don’t get to decide what the outcome is.” – Cait Donovan
  • Cait mentions internal boundaries are me against me boundaries. An example would be not doing a certain thing or crossing a certain line.
  • “If you’re setting an external boundary, then you can make whatever request you like, which is not the boundary. Please don’t call me after 6 PM is not a boundary. That’s a request. The boundary is what you will do in response to people breaking or respecting your boundary.” – Cait Donovan
  • External boundaries are things we told someone in advance would happen in a specific scenario.
  • If we tell someone we will not answer the phone after 6 PM and then don’t answer when that person calls after 6 PM, that is an external boundary.
  • “You have to understand that once you create those lines in the sand, they sometimes have consequences.” – Cait Donovan
• If you want to hear more from Cait and what she is doing to end burnout culture, check out FRIED: The Burnout Podcast.
  • “I think that it’s wise to remember how much power and autonomy you do have in your life. When you are under chronic stress, we tend to end up under this illusion that we don’t have any control and that we don’t have enough autonomy. And if you’re feeling that way right now, I would challenge you to challenge that. Take some time to figure out what you can influence, where you can influence it, and then start making the shifts that you need to make to increase your own feelings of safety, to increase your own feelings of security so that no matter what happens you’re in a better space.” – Cait Donovan

Mentioned in the Outro

• Cait mentioned mapping out your money as well as writing a new resume as things you can control and a way to process emotions from a difficult situation like a layoff.

  • If you’re looking to uncover more things you can control but may have overlooked, check out Episode 90 – Book Discussion: The Inner Game of Stress by Gallwey, Hanzelik, and Horton.

• Helpful links based on this discussion from Cait:

  • Burnout Protection Factors or BPFs
  • Burnout Protection Factors are Smaller Than You Think
  • Burnout Risk Factors or BRFs
  • Download Cait’s Core Values Worksheet

• For the leaders listening who want to improve empathy, check out Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3).

• Recommending listening for stories of burnout:

  • Episode 127 – Countdown to Burnout with Tom Hollingsworth (3/3)
  • Episode 132 – Riding the Burnout Wave with Jonathan F
  • Episode 166 – Management and the Hypergrowth Startup with Andrew Miller (2/3)
  • Episode 167 – Pause and Step Outside with Andrew Miller (3/3)
  • Episode 181 – Crossing the Burnout Fault Line with Bill Kindle (2/3)
  • Episode 47 – You, Your Health, and the Datacenter with Keiran Shelden
  • Episode 58 – The Path to Management and Hard Resume Lessons with Kelly Schroeder
  • Other episodes can be found on Nick’s blog Burned Out for the Holidays.

• If you need support because you’ve been impacted by a layoff situation, we recommend listening to the following episodes:

  • Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2)
  • Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)
  • Episode 290 – Reduction in Force: Navigating Layoff Trends in Tech with Real Job Talk (1/2)
  • Episode 291 – Layoffs and Job Market Impacts: Experience with RIFs Preferred with Real Job Talk (2/2)

Contact the Hosts

• The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte.
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