#005 Making Ecommerce More Sustainable & Positively Impactful

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Where to find Jessica and Naomi:

Twelve

Links Mentioned in the Episode:

Gerry McGovern Podcast with us

Pukka Herbs
Finisterre - Leave No Trace
Bcorp

Shownotes:

Rich Bunker 0:00
Hello, and welcome to The MindfulCommerce podcast, a place where we talk to ecommerce experts and brands who care about protecting our planet.

Krissie Leyland 0:07
Today we're talking to Jessica and Naomi from Twelve, a sustainability consultancy firm, helping businesses respond to the climate and ecological emergency and embed sustainability in the way they work.

Happy New Year, everyone. This is our very first podcast of 2021. And we are very, very excited because we'll talk to Jessica and Naomi about our sustainability framework, which we built with them last year. It was a very interesting project. And it is, we think, is going to be very beneficial for the ecommerce industry, and also for the planet.

All notes will be in the show notes. And if you have any questions or input, please feel free to email us at [e-mail]. Enjoy.

Hello, and welcome Jessica and Naomi. Jessica, because you are the founder of Twelve, would you like to introduce yourself first? And tell us a little bit about your agency?

Jessica Ferrow 1:23
Hi, you just did a great job of introducing me. Yeah, I am one of the two co founders of Twelve and we set up as a business in 2020. And yeah we're here to help businesses respond to the climate and ecological crisis. But yeah, I've been working in sustainability for about 10 years, working with businesses, mainly purpose driven businesses, to help them be better and have more positive impact in the world.

Krissie Leyland 1:52
Cool. And what about you Naomi?

Naomi Lawson 1:55
Hello. Um, so thanks very much for having us on the podcast. I'm a sustainability consultant and I've been working with Jessica over roughly the past year, which has been great. I kind of started out my career working for BCorps like Pukka herbs. And I've specialised in communications, marketing, and working on policies and campaigns that kind of focus on big impact to help tackle the climate and ecological crisis. That's me.

Krissie Leyland 2:32
Perfect. And Jess, what brands have you worked with?

Jessica Ferrow 2:35
Sure, yeah. So I spent some time... Well, a few years ago, I was kind of working with large businesses. So mainly, like on corporate responsibility, so I did a lot of work doing sustainability reporting for companies like IKEA, Vodafone, BT, those kinds of organisations. And then lately I've been working more with purpose driven founder led BCorps so I work with Pukka - been working with Pukka for the last three or four years. Worked with Ella's kitchen, Finisterre... I've done some work with Ecover. And yeah, so it's just Oh, and was really one of the companies I'm working with the moment is Edgard and Cooper who made pet food, and I think your doggy eats Edgard and Cooper!

Krissie Leyland 3:22
Yes he does! We just transferred him over fully. And he loves it.

Jessica Ferrow 3:29
Great. Yeah.

Krissie Leyland 3:29
We love it too, not to eat, but you know, the brand, I look at the packaging, and I'm just like, this is amazing. I'd probably eat that.

Jessica Ferrow 3:37
Yeah, I feel like the rule for us, like for the kinds of brands we like to work with my co founder, Ellie and I, we often say like, Is it the kind of brand that we like, and we want to use? And that we maybe probably have in our cupboards or on our shelves? And if the answer is yes, then yeah, we want to work with them for sure.

Krissie Leyland 3:54
Perfect.

Rich Bunker 3:54
Cool.

Krissie Leyland 3:55
Um, so what are the kind of projects that you work on with these brands? And what does the process usually look like, working with you?

Jessica Ferrow 4:05
Yeah, so basically, what we tend to find is most businesses in the world they want to make a positive impact. Or they want it you know, more and more these days, people are waking up to what's going on in the world with the climate and with nature. And, or if they haven't yet, they're kind of, they're going to wake up soon. But they it's been amazing the last few years, ever since Gretta, has become a big name and and extinction rebellion and the school strikes and all the things that are happening. And then of course, now with pandemic, David Attenborough and all these things, people are waking up and now most businesses are feeling the pressure from them. Their employees or their customers or even just their own consciousness of just being a better business and doing better things for the world and leaving the world a better place than they found it. So what we do is we help businesses to navigate those challenges, because it's all very well saying I want to be really sustainable business, but a lot of people just have no idea where to start.

So, yeah, what we'll do at Twelve is we help guide businesses through that process. And we normally help them to create a strategy, a sustainability strategy, which would help them identify targets and set a roadmap for improvement. And then also, we'd help them to communicate that with their consumers. We also help businesses to become BCorps and so if you don't know what B Corp is, it's certification for ethical and sustainable businesses. So it's, if you don't know what it is, you should definitely check it out. Because it's an amazing movement that's sweeping the globe. I know you guys know what it is.

Krissie Leyland 5:49
There's something else that might sweep the globe that we worked on together recently. So obviously, we recently worked with you on a very exciting project. So we built the MindfulCommerce Sustainability Framework together. And it sounds like this isn't normally your usual style of project. So what were your initial thoughts when you? Well, when we approached you with this idea for the framework?

Jessica Ferrow 6:17
Yeah, great question. So yeah, we loved working on the MindfulCommerce Framework you guys, what we love about that project is that normally would be working with one business, on their own sustainability strategy, and how they're going to become a more sustainable business themselves. So it's kind of on a micro level, when you approached us and talked about your vision for the MindfulCommerce Framework... It just is basically the same thing but on a whole industry level, or even beyond an industry because ecommerce isn't exactly an industry is a kind of, it's a what a channel, it's a it's a way people are selling. So it encompasses so much more on a much more macro scale, but it's a similar process that we followed with you to get to the result that we we wanted, we essentially, well, should we talk about the the project and what, what, what we did?

Krissie Leyland 7:10
Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, talk us through like, so I approached you. And I said, or we said, actually, originally, I think I wanted to make my business more sustainable, and then work with you to define a framework for Kollectify and then you were like, I think it's bigger than that. Because we would then use that framework to help other businesses in the ecommerce industry to kind of do the same thing. And then, yeah,

I totally forgot about that.

Rich Bunker 7:43
Yeah, yeah it was because I suggested it is like, for us to be on not authoritative but have experienced the process, then we could better understand it, to deliver it and help others get to that place. So I was like, let's put Kollectify through it. But then you guys like, it's too big for Kollectify, it doesn't work enough for Kollectify, we need to go bigger.

Jessica Ferrow 8:08
Yeah, I think that that's right. I think what happened was, it was just, it was great to see that you, it was really obvious when you first approached us is that you really wants to make an impact. But you weren't quite sure how you had a huge amount of energy, that you wanted to channel somewhere. But you and you want to have this positive impact in the world, but you just were like, help us figure out what to do. So I think what we really noticed that your vision to bring everyone together in this MindfulCommerce Community was was going to be the key. And what we really needed is something to hold together that community. Yeah, we needed a focus. So it's like you bring all these people through the door and saying we want to make ecommerce more sustainable, and more mindful. But when there's no answer to the question of Okay, how do you do that, then it's a little bit up in the air. So what we really wanted to create was a kind of best practice framework for all of the things that anyone working in ecommerce, can look at in terms of steps to become more sustainable, more ethical, more mindful. And then provide that to them as something they can work through.

Krissie Leyland 9:20
Yeah. And then the next step was, you went and did loads of research. So yeah, do you wanna talk us through that?

Jessica Ferrow 9:29
Sure. Naomi, you want to talk us through that?

Naomi Lawson 9:31
Yeah, sure. I was also just going to say, because I wasn't on the initial phone calls as well. So I remember when Jessica briefed me as well. It was obviously a really exciting project, because we were talking about the fact that it could have a really big impact. And that really came through when we did the initial research as well, because it was clear that this was like a big open space where not a lot of work had been done. And it was and it was definitely needed. So it was Yeah, it was a great project to work on from that perspective.

For our stakeholder research, we had a couple different approaches. Firstly, we did a survey for the MindfulCommerce Community, and kind of identified what the main environmental challenges that are facing the ecommerce world. And as well as that, we also interviewed 10 key stakeholders from large merchants through to small ethical merchants, as well as tech developers and web experts to get a real range of perspectives and views on again, what the most kind of prominent environmental challenges there are facing ecommerce. And we used that information to develop an insights report and kind of gather our key recommendations for building the Framework.

Jessica Ferrow 10:56
When when you approach us we realised that we needed to find out more about what was going on out there. So the best way to do that was to speak directly to people who are working in e commerce. So we ran some surveys, we did some interviews with some experts. And through that, we gathered a load of insights into what was happening out there, what was missing, what people needed. And the main things that we heard, were that people really wanted to be more sustainable in their ecommerce, but they just had no idea where to start. They wanted to be more sustainable businesses, but they weren't really sure where to go to find those materials. They really valued that idea of a community that they could be part of. And they also really, they there just wasn't much out there already. So we could really see an opportunity. And what this this told us is that the MindfulCommerce Framework could have a really massive potential impact. Because there's lots of people out there who are just poised to do something, but they don't know where to start.

Krissie Leyland 12:04
Yeah. Why do you think these people didn't know where to start? Like, I guess because ecommerce is a specific world. And it's not just like your supply chains. And yeah, why do you think no one's done it before?

Jessica Ferrow 12:21
Yeah, it's a great question. Because some of the brands that we spoke to, even if they have quite robust sustainability programmes in place, even some of the more kind of sustainable brands that you think of, they hadn't quite tied up their sustainability department with their ecommerce department. I think quite a lot of the time in the kind of medium to larger businesses, those two aren't necessarily crossing over. So you've got the ecommerce team who just focused on growth and sales. And they aren't necessarily embedding really sustainable practices. I just think it's not quite come on people's radars yet, I think a lot of people are thinking about packaging, that's the main thing that consumers will be noticing and flagging up. But I think beyond that, I think a lot of brands haven't quite thought beyond the packaging piece. Or we just saw, those are great opportunities for how, for example, there's so many tech tools on the Shopify App Store, where you can add carbon offsetting at checkout, you can add charitable donations, at checkout, you can there's even apps or kind of tools that you can add plug into your Shopify website where you can create a whole secondhand store on your on your site. And that is called ...

Krissie Leyland 13:49
Recurate.

Jessica Ferrow 13:50
Recurate! And they're part of the MindfulCommerce Community.

Krissie Leyland 13:55
They are.

Jessica Ferrow 13:55
But I think a lot of brands don't know about these opportunities. So what we really wanted the framework to do was to not just tell people what they could do, but actually link them up with the apps, people the organisations, the partners who can help them do those things.

Krissie Leyland 14:13
Yes, that's my favourite. They're my favourite benefits, you just nailed them.

Naomi Lawson 14:18
And I also think that when we spoke to ecommerce experts, and people who work for different for different brands, and spoke to them about the different challenges, I think it all seemed a bit overwhelming. So we needed to think of a way where we could kind of break it down and, and people who kind of work in ecommerce could type kind of, like take it step by step because they didn't know which challenge to prioritise. And that's kind of why we framed it and we took like a value chain approach. So first, so people who want to use the framework would start with sourcing and kind of end with like, product end of life. Yeah. But that's kind of going on and getting into the nitty gritty of the framework. Are we ready? Yeah,

Jessica Ferrow 14:37
yeah, it's really important to say that like, there are lots of tools out there for businesses to use to become more sustainable. But I haven't seen that many that have been specifically cut for those working in ecommerce. So I think it's just, this is a specialist tool, that speaking the language of people who are working with ecommerce in e commerce, and it specifically identified all the issues that they are working on or that they need to prioritise. So we, you know, I talked before about how we work with businesses to help them become more sustainable, what we do we help them to, like set a strategy and to figure out what they need to do. We've done that, yeah, or a company that's got an ecommerce operation. So it's, it's specialised,

Krissie Leyland 15:39
yeah and it can scale and that's why it could make a big impact.

Rich Bunker 15:46
So that's great. So what is the framework? And sort of, can you give us an overview of it?

Jessica Ferrow 15:53
Sure. So the framework is a best practice guide for any company who's working in the ecommerce world. And it's split into six categories, or pillars. So I'll just list them off. And then I'll go through them in more detail.

So there's mindful business, mindful sourcing, mindful footprint, mindful deliveries, mindful products, and mindful communications. So mindful business is all about your business model. So it's, what kind of business are you? Do you have a strong mission? Do you have a mission for social impact? Are you doing anything to try and tackle the issues around for example, overconsumption and people buying too much? And I have you got any aspects of your business that, for example, are you working in the circular economy? Or are you doing something that's not just traditional types of business, but something that's inherently sustainable? So that's kind of what kind of business model are you.

So the Framework contains loads of prompts, and questions to help people navigate some of those ideas. And it also provides links to case studies or examples of businesses that are doing these things, or it links to resources for them to learn more.

Krissie Leyland 17:16
And to the MindfulCommerce Directory. If, for example, there is a tech company that is involved with the circular economy. So for example, Recurate who offers, like we mentioned before, a plugin for a brand to have a secondhand store, then they would be kind of listed as an example, for the brand to find on the directory to help them with that.

Jessica Ferrow 17:46
Exactly. And that's one of the things I love about this tool is that it's linking back to the directory, and it's all the people within the community that can help each other out. So we tried wherever possible to link to people in the community, and we really hope that over time, the framework can evolve and grow. And more and more, we hope that we can add more links in to people within the community itself who can help each other.

So yeah, the second one is mindful sourcing. So it's all about what kind of supply chain do you have? Where are you getting your products from? What are they made of that kind of thing. Then we have multiple footprints. So this is all thinking about your carbon footprint as a business. Even thinking about things like your website, and the data that you're using, and how much carbon emissions that's causing. And so it's really helping you think about - maybe things you haven't thought about before.

And deliveries. So that's obviously a big one for ecommerce. So in here, we talk about packaging, of course, different types of delivery methods, and we so some people might not realise that if you choose next day delivery, on an online purchase, that that might mean that it has a much higher carbon emissions than if you chose a slower method of delivery. That's because often, especially in the United States, next day delivery means probably it's going to be popped on a plane overnight and flown to you. Whereas if you chose slow delivery, it might make its way to you by road or another way.

So I think just a lot of people who are just buying something on a website might not think about that. But we're trying to encourage businesses to offer more awareness to their consumers about that and offer them different options.

Naomi Lawson 19:37
Yeah, because I guess the thinking behind that as well as like, obviously, if consumers are aware, then they might choose a better delivery option and also are given an incentive to.

Jessica Ferrow 19:48
Yeah, exactly. So that's deliveries and then products. So the products themselves, what we're really trying to think about is yeh, what is your product? How are you thinking about how you can make your product better how you think about how you can cut out waste ending up in landfill could it end up as something else, and designing it. So for example, Fairphone, design phones that can be their components can all be replaced easily. So instead of it becoming e waste, it would become something that could be used again. And then finally, mindful communications, because we think it's all very well doing all these things. But if you're not telling people what you're doing, then you don't, you're not unlocking that opportunity to lead change in the industry. So we really encourage that kind of to talk about what you're doing and sharing with others in your industry and leading that change.

Krissie Leyland 20:45
Yeah, that one's a good one. Because it by doing that you're building awareness as well. And then giving the ideas to other people to do the same thing. And like influencing, because we buy from a really good coffee brand. And didn't know for a while that their packaging is actually like fully recyclable, which is really interesting for a coffee brand because it's difficult to normally how to have like the foil inside and stuff. But if he had said it on the packaging, then you know, yeah, we would know we could recycle it. and he is doing really cool things as well like making it will be like actually,

Rich Bunker 21:28
home compostable

Krissie Leyland 21:28
home compostable. Yeah. So he's like working with another organisation to create this home compostable packaging. And then I was like, oh, would you mind when you've done that, sharing that so then we could tell some other coffee brands. And yeah, it's like, innovation, spread the word, build awareness and a nice little circle.

Rich Bunker 21:53
Exactly.

Jessica Ferrow 21:55
Yeah, and a great example of a company that's doing that is Finisterre. So Finisterre, make ethical apparel. And they are they create, they've created what they call Leave No Trace bag, which is made out of water soluble material. And they are using that instead of kind of poly plastic to send out their clothes. And, and instead of keeping that innovation to themselves, and giving themselves the kind of competitive advantage for being a really sustainable company. They've just open sourced it. So they've just said anyone who wants to use this bag can just speak to us about it, so and they they've gone to other B corps and offered it to them. So that's a great example of communications and kind of advocating for change and, and sharing open source information.

Rich Bunker 22:44
Super - thank you for going through that.

Naomi Lawson 22:47
And I guess another thing to say about the framework as well is that it's all about asking questions, and prompting people to think about different, like different areas of sustainability, rather than telling them what to do.

Krissie Leyland 23:04
Yes, yeah, definitely.

Rich Bunker 23:05
Definitely. It's a good it's a, it's a helps them ask the questions about themselves. That's what I found sort of looking at it was definitely, you can gauge yourself by it, and really deeply get into almost sometimes too deeply, to where you can go and what you can do to make yourself your business more sustainable or better for the environment. And that's great. And I guess, a little bit - in reflection now that it's been out there and delivered. And we've had a few weeks to play with it and, and ask the community what they think about it, but like, what are your guys thoughts on it? Now that you know you're looking back at the project and where it is now? What do you think about it?

Jessica Ferrow 23:54
Yeah, so I'm really excited about I think what we found in our research, or what we really felt with this project is that we didn't spend, you know, it was quite a quick project to just get started. And we didn't want to spend like a year perfecting it and getting it to like the perfect, perfect thing and test and tests and tests. We just wanted to get something out there that people can start using. And what I'm really excited about is seeing how it evolves. And we by no means think that it's perfect to begin with, even though we know it's really great start and I'm sure that anyone who goes in and starts playing around with it and finds it, they'll definitely find some really useful resources. And I'm sure they will find things in there that they've not heard of, or they've not come across before. So even if we can get someone to know about one app or one tech company that they've never heard of, then we've done some good, but I would expect that most people will find a lot more than that in there. And as time goes on, we can just keep tweaking it and keep improving it and keep adding more and more things, more resources to it. I very much see it as a work in progress that can grow and grow. And with feedback from the community with input, and as things improve, so I'm excited to see where it goes.

Krissie Leyland 25:09
Yeah, definitely. I'm already like, constantly thinking of how we can improve it and add more solutions, more brands as examples. And yeah, it's great.

Naomi Lawson 25:20
Yeah, definitely. And I think we also spoke about how we could kind of expand it and draw on your amazing community of experts that you've already got to do things like run kind of workshops and webinars on like specific areas of sustainable e commerce. So there's so much that you can do with it.

Krissie Leyland 25:41
Yeah, that's a good idea.

Rich Bunker 25:43
Jot that one down!

Jessica Ferrow 25:48
And I'm just really just seeing it as something that can create so much impact because we are Twelve, as so we set up Twelve because it was all about - it is called Twelve because in 2018, there was a report by the IPCC released that said that we had less than 12 years to avert the climate and ecological crisis. So we've now got less than 12 years to go. So yeah, we only really want to work on projects that are game changing, and they're going to make a big impact. And that's why we love this project. Because the scalability of it, you know, there could be hundreds or 1000s of people using this framework and making positive impact to their business. And that really gives us a really good feeling. And we really hope that even if one business changes the way they source their materials, or reconsiders, the kind of packaging that they use or thinks about how they could be a more purpose driven business, then we've done our job. But I would just say that the the scope for scale is huge. So I really hope that lots of people do use it.

Naomi Lawson 26:55
And the key thing as well, just in the framework that we spoke about a lot was needed to show users how to think beyond their own operations. So it's not just about reducing the negative impacts, but also about how they can increase their positive impact. So it's a bit of a mindset change for for some organisations.

Krissie Leyland 27:13
Definitely. And even like, you know, the thing that I kept saying was, we need to talk about the websites and the impact of an e commerce website. Because not like I say this all the time, but not enough people realise that because it's just because it's not physical, it's still having an impact. And it's taking energy from the planet. And I think that's the biggest thing that people go, Oh, I never realised that. So just by, like you said, if one person takes one thing away from this framework, or being in the community, then we've done our job.

Jessica Ferrow 27:51
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think what the the important thing that, that as sustainability consultants, we would try to get people to think about is how material those issues are. So if you are a huge company, like a huge, you know, clothing company, that selling fast fashion, and your website is probably not going to be your biggest impact. So it might not be the thing you focus on. First, you might want to think about the fact that you're flying clothes all around the world, and you've got a truck to transport going everywhere. If you're a small company like yourselves, and with a few a small team working remotely, then yeah, your digital footprint is likely to be one of your significant impacts. So you have to think about it like that, that different companies need to think about what their biggest impacts are, and they're not going to be able to do that until they start looking into it.

Krissie Leyland 28:43
That's very true.

Rich Bunker 28:44
I think that was one of the big Penny drop them for me was, you know, when we found out about listening to our friend Gerry about the digital impact of business businesses online. And that was just I was kinda like, we just have to tell people about this. How do we how do we let people know about this so they can make more informed better decisions? And that I think that was one of the biggest things that kicked off.

Krissie Leyland 29:10
It was it was the rabbit hole.

Rich Bunker 29:11
Yeah, the MindfulCommerce reconing.

Jessica Ferrow 29:15
We're really lucky to speak to Gerry as part of our research for the Framework, we had a great conversation with him and he has some extraordinary facts around the amount of data storage and and how many trees you'd have to plant per year to just account for the returns. I think it's something like 2 billion trees per year.

Krissie Leyland 29:36
He has some shocking stats that make you think. And and by the way, we did interview him on the podcast on episode three.

Jessica Ferrow 29:47
Listen to that definitely. Yeah, no, it's really it's really great to have such a wide range of experts in the community, just who are all supportive of this and what we found when we did our research was there was appetite and support from all the people we spoke to for this. So it was really great to, to feel that love from the community and enthusiasm.

Krissie Leyland 30:10
Just out of interest on that topic of, you know, digital impact. And did you ever think about that? Did you consider it before you met us? Or was like, was it already on your radar?

Jessica Ferrow 30:26
It's definitely on my radar it's probably not something that I had, it's probably something that I had thought I need to act on it. Like, I've got some shocking amount of emails, you know, old emails that I probably need to delete are just like digital clutter. And it probably just gave me the kick to just tackle it a bit or think about it a bit more. But yeah, I think you guys have done a great job of raising awareness of that issue. So yeah, keep doing it. For sure.

Naomi Lawson 30:56
Definitely. I too am just, I kind of, I knew it was a thing before, but I am so much more conscious of it now day to day, kind of things like thinking before sending an email and storing images and watching videos and things like that.

Krissie Leyland 31:13
Yeah, definitely. I think in ecommerce, it's quite tricky, because, you know, it's quite image heavy. And videos and graphics and stuff. But yeah, hopefully we can help people to do better.

Jessica Ferrow 31:31
Yeah, I don't, I also think that people need to think about the thing that is, like I said, the thing that's going to be the most material impact, you know, if you, if you if your house was burning down, you wouldn't go outside and like, put out the tiny fire in like, a tiny corner of the garden, you know, like, do you know, I mean, it's just you need to kind of focus on the areas that you are your biggest impact. And, and that's what as sustainability consultants, that's what we kind of help people to figure out. And there's lots of ways that you can do that you can do that through the carbon emissions that it creates the spend that you're spending on it, the amount of impact it has on your business, and how relevant it is to your business, that kind of thing. So, but you've got a lot of our thinking in the framework, you know, as sustainability consultants, we've put all that together, and we've literally externalised our brain into, into a resource that you can read and look at. So it's like, we think about it as like having a sustainability expert in your pocket? So

Rich Bunker 32:33
It's a great way to you know, you can use the framework to sort of go Okay, maybe that is my big ticket item, that that's the biggest impact we have. But we can't afford to change that just yet. What else can we do? It gives us that, you know, because sometimes businesses get focused on Oh, we need to change this massive impact that our business has, but then can't see past it.

Krissie Leyland 32:53
can't do it right now. So in the meantime, I'll look at this small thing that I can do, which has a big impact small but big change.

Jessica Ferrow 33:02
Yeah, exactly.

Rich Bunker 33:03
If you do several small things that are easy to change, you can have quite a big impact in your business, as opposed to just doing the one big thing that might take some time and have quite a lot of institutional changes that you need to do you know, so

Jessica Ferrow 33:16
yeah, that's totally right. And sometimes it can be cheaper things are easy things or behavioural changes. And I think the most important thing that I'd encourage people to look at is, is that kind of mindset, mind set shift. So actually getting them to think and ask questions of themselves that are a bit more like a business that takes sustainability seriously. And just, some people might have never asked themselves those questions before. I think when people are new to the idea of sustainability, they're always asking, what's the right thing? Should I do this? Or this? You know, should I use this type of packaging? Or this type of packaging? Which one's better? Which one's best? And what I often have to explain to people is, it depends. It depends, and it depends what best is. And what best is depends on what your priorities are. So what do your consumers care about? What do you care about? is plastic The worst thing for your consumers and they don't want to see any plastic? Or is it Do they want to have Do you have to also balance all these other things like durability, and it's no good if you have a really sustainable packaging, that means all the goods insides get damaged or it gets damaged 50% of time, so you have to send it back and that's going to create more carbon emissions. So it's all about as a sustainability consultant, what we're always trying to do is think holistically about all the different multifaceted issues that will add up to your environmental impact, and social impact and trying to balance all those challenges.

Rich Bunker 34:47
you know, and tech can help with that. I think tech can be really helpful in leading that change. You know, there's lots of good calculators out and there's probably scope for more calculators out there that say like a business has got a product and they ship it in plastic packaging, or it's a plastic bottle and they're like, we want to be more sustainable or something that's more recyclable or something that can be reused, we're going to use glass. But then what is the upshot of using that glass, like the co2 footprint of transporting that glass product, as opposed to a plastic could be, you know, in tech can play a big part in in that where there's lots of online calculators that you can gauge your co2 footprint and you know, against the two, again, it's, it's what's best or better or the best. And there's there's definitely scope for tech, to help with that. And I guess what, what's your guy's views on tech in e commerce and its place in sustainability?

Jessica Ferrow 35:48
Well, tech,

Naomi Lawson 35:50
tech, I think with tech, there are already a lot of tech solutions out there for different sustainability challenges. I think one of the challenges perhaps for kind of tech developers and applications is kind of them getting the message out there and communicating and kind of promoting their own service potentially. And kind of seeing themselves as a sustainability solution. I guess an example of that would be, maybe it comes down to to the brand or merchant using them. But an example of that would be Okendo, which is an app that enables shoppers to review their purchase online. So I know that Finisterre for example, use Okendo so that people can purchase an item, once they have done they can leave a review, say if the sizing runs large or small, which obviously enables future shoppers to go look at the reviews and say, okay, that runs large, so perhaps I'll get some size down, which means that they are reducing the number of returns, which obviously lowers their carbon emissions. But so that's that's an amazing initiative. But I would say that a lot of a lot of organisations maybe don't see that as being an amazing initiative or being something that is an incredible sustainability solution.

Krissie Leyland 37:23
I absolutely love that. it's true. They don't they don't recognise, in particular Okendo... so I've got a good relationship with Okendo, and they, I was like, have you worked with any, you know, sustainable ethical brands? Can you help with this and that and they're like, I haven't really thought about that. And yeah, they're in our report, they're in our framework and now on the directory, and all of a sudden, they're like, Oh, yeah, I can be a solution to help fight climate change. And, yeah, it's just, I liked your answer.

Naomi Lawson 38:01
That's good.

But actually, quite an interesting fact that Gerry McGovern gave us is that 1.5 billion trees would need to be planted to deal with annual ecommerce returns in the US alone. So yeah, reducing the number of returns is making ecommerce more sustainable.

Krissie Leyland 38:20
Yeah. So Okendo, a customer review app are a solution a solution to lots of , well, the biggest ecommerce issue, which in my opinion, retruns like returns are the biggest issue in ecommerce, huge Like...

Jessica Ferrow 38:39
yeah and we want to get more people realising how they can be an actor in that in that response, or into kind of fight one of those big challenges. So if we have the issue of returns, like how can we get more app developers to, to kind of step up and say we we've got solution to that. And there's some really cool as well, just thinking about other tech tools that are at play. And quite a few companies now like ASOS and Finisterre using AI, lead size fit guides. So you go online, helps you find the right fit. And so you click you know, or you average body shape, or you know, above or below and then what height you what weights, and it kind of figures out the best size for you and says you should by size 10 or size 12 or whatever. And then it's it's much more likely that you'll get the right fit first time. So again, reducing returns. So more and more that of companies that can do that. They're also going to save money, because often returns are free. So it's it's a win win for businesses to do this.

Rich Bunker 39:41
Definitely.

Krissie Leyland 39:43
Yeah.

Naomi Lawson 39:43
I also think when it comes to returns, as well as it comes back to the communication piece up. It's most people I would say, think oh, I'll just order two sizes of that because they can easily send it back and they won't think about the impact that that has which is massive. But all it takes is is kind of raising awareness and people to think about it to just completely change their habits, which if you know, like the impact that that could have if there was sort of a big industry led campaign around, it would be huge again.

Krissie Leyland 40:20
Yeah, I've actually recently come across an app that at checkout says, like, your impact or a comment what it was, but I was like, Oh, my God, that's a perfect app to say, like, prompt the shopper - Do you really need this, like, this is the impact that it's going to have, and make them just be more mindful about their purchases.

Jessica Ferrow 40:49
I love that. I love that I'd love to see that. You know, why you got Three? Three have the same dress in your basket? Why don't you head over to our fitness system to find the right size? You know, like that. And if we had a industry wide example of best practice, if we have more and more people saying, well, we're doing this, we've got this tool, we've installed this plugin, we're using this. And then if we had an industry wide campaign, where we tried to get all the power companies to do something similar. I just think that's where we need to go, we need to get all the people have the solutions to start telling everyone Hey, this is the way to do it. We all need to do this. Come on, let's get on board. And I think you could see some really rapid change.

Naomi Lawson 41:32
Exactly, yeah. And partnerships are important in e commerce, which is why the directory is needed. But yeah, another thing that I've seen recently, I can't remember where it was, was basic, I think it was a men's clothing website. And it basically told people, it would tell you, like how much water was used to make a T shirt, or you know how much energy was used. And that's just amazing. Just to get you to stop and think about whether you need something as well, and to realise, like the impact of your purchase. Yeah,

Krissie Leyland 42:11
it's just cool. And definitely transparency. And yeah, communicate your impact.

Rich Bunker 42:18
I think, I mean, there's, there's a lot of businesses and a lot of tech, and a lot of good solutions out there. And there's just not enough awareness about the solutions, I think is the biggest problem.

Krissie Leyland 42:31
That's our goal to build awareness of them.

Rich Bunker 42:35
And if there isn't, if there is a problem that a lot of brands and merchants are facing, and then they're asking about it, and there's a there's sometimes a gap in to be filled by some tech, possibly so that that'll be part of the framework, where there isn't a solution for merchants problems. So ...

Krissie Leyland 42:57
We will be like, can you fill this with your current app or like add a feature to your current app or build an entirely different app for to fill that gap?

Jessica Ferrow 43:10
Yeah, 100%. Like, I would love to see tech companies kind of doing massive hackathons to figure out the solution, you know, to these things, if we're like, we really need something that's going to help us track our carbon footprint from warehouse to end user. And we don't have a tool to do it. But we're pretty sure using mobile data, we can do it. And who can do it, as well as so many clever smart people out there. There's so many young graduates who are just absolute coding geniuses, who I'm sure if we gave them that challenge, they could meet it, I'm sure they could learn something amazing. So it's identifying the need, it's identifying the fact that we want to do this. There's a lot of people out there who who want to do it, and it could be a great opportunity.

Krissie Leyland 43:58
So I'm very aware of your time. So I guess I might ask Naomi first. What's your number one tip or words of wisdom for any ecommerce business who wants to be more sustainable?

Naomi Lawson 44:20
Phwor that's a good one. I'm just gonna go to my notes. might have to cut this out.

Rich Bunker 44:31
How professional, you have notes.

Krissie Leyland 44:33
Yeh, we didnt even share the talking points!

Naomi Lawson 44:38
So I would like to encourage organisations to really reflect on their business model. I think a lot of businesses fall short when they're setting sustainability goals and targets because they're so focused on short term gains. And actually thinking long term is so critical to ongoing commercial success and to the protection of our planet. And if we're not thinking long term then there won't be a planet for us to make profit to run our business.

Krissie Leyland 45:07
Ohhh...

Rich Bunker 45:07
Very deep, I like it

Krissie Leyland 45:10
I like that. I like that a lot. So over to you, Jessica.

Jessica Ferrow 45:18
Yeah. So my top tip would be, just get started, it can feel really overwhelming when you just see this huge list of things, or you look at other businesses, and they seem so far ahead of you. But really, every journey starts with a single step. And it really is important just to start where you can start small, get the wins, celebrate the wins. And also just find the right people to work with. Just reach out to people who are doing it, find experts to work with find brilliant people on your team, quite often, if you have a team, you know, young people will be very interested in helping you with this. And you can delegate projects to interns, or, or, or senior managers, or anyone at most people will be really motivated by this kind of work. So just get everyone involved and just try and set a target to get something done by a certain date, and then keep going. And good luck.

Krissie Leyland 46:20
Perfect.

Rich Bunker 46:21
Great, great answer.

Naomi Lawson 46:22
That's a great answer.

Rich Bunker 46:24
I guess one final thing to touch on. You mentioned it early on in the podcast there was you help businesses with B Corp certification? And really, what are the big differences between B Corp and what you've created for us at MC?

Jessica Ferrow 46:43
Great question, because I think that's a really, it's really good to to recognise that there are other frameworks out there. And the BIA, the B impact assessment, which is the one you do for the B Corp certification is also a big list of questions, which you tick. And the main difference I would say is that the MindfulCommerce Framework is first and foremost geared up for people who are working in e commerce in some way. So it's been tailor made for that kind of organisation. So it has more specific questions to that kind of business. However, it does also have some broader sustainability and business related questions and topics. So I would say the MindfulCommerce Framework is really great place to get started and to start your journey towards becoming a more sustainable business. And I think the BIA B Corp assessment, after you've done the MindfulCommerce Framework would be a lot less daunting and a lot that you find quite a lot of overlap. And you'd be on a great, you've done a great start to continue and do the B Corp as a next step. But I would say that when you first approached the BIA, it can be a bit overwhelming, because there's more than 200 questions, and some of them you're like, how does this even relate to my business and some of the way the languages can be quite difficult to navigate. So for a company that doesn't have a sustainability strategy in place, it can be quite difficult to know, where you should be focusing. So that's what that's why we find that often we work with businesses to help them identify what their priorities are, and help them set their own strategy before tackling the BIA because it helps them not just go down rabbit holes, focusing on how to measure water consumption in their suppliers, when actually they really should be focusing on the you know, environmental footprint of their offices, which are massive, whatever it is, it's just like, you've got to you've got to it was like I was talking about for you need to go where the big impacts are. And the people that are in your company and your stakeholders care about.

Krissie Leyland 48:52
What about the other way around? So if you're if you're doing the B Corp assessment, so the BIA

Jessica Ferrow 49:00
Yeah.

Krissie Leyland 49:05
And and then you came across the MindfulCommerce Framework. So you're an e commerce business, obviously.

Jessica Ferrow 49:09
Yeah, I still think you'd really find the MindfulCommerce Framework useful because as we talked about, there's loads of case studies, which you never even find that in the BIA. It's not like an informative thing. It's more like a questionnaire asking you about your performance. Whereas I feel like the MindfulCommerce Framework has got more focus on improvement, and also linking you up via the directory of people who can help you. So it's more like a one stop shop for thinking about your business but also improving rather than just assessing where you're at. So I think if you've done the BIA or you're already a certified B Corp, I really think you will still really find the MindfulCommerce Framework to be super useful in your journey.

Krissie Leyland 49:46
Perfect. Wow. I love this.

Why didn't we do this ages ago, I would have found it so much easier to write the website copy

Rich Bunker 50:01
The first iteration is out there.

Jessica Ferrow 50:02
Well that's it it's an iteration. You just have to keep improving. And done is better than perfect, right?

Rich Bunker 50:11
Like the framework is, it's a journey.

Krissie Leyland 50:14
It's a journey for us as well. Um, thank you so much. It was lovely to chat to you both.

Jessica Ferrow 50:24
Thank you. Great. Talk to you guys, too.

Naomi Lawson 50:26
Yeah, it's lovely to catch up.

Krissie Leyland 50:28
Thanks for winging it with us.

Rich Bunker 50:30
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for the catch. And really, thanks again for helping us get to where we needed to get to to help others.

Krissie Leyland 50:39
Hmm, it's amazing, honestly.

Jessica Ferrow 50:42
Aww it was great to work with you. And we really look forward to seeing all the impact that the framework and the directory will, will make, and we look forward to hearing what people think so do let us know.

Krissie Leyland 50:51
Definitely. 100%

Naomi Lawson 50:53
I can't wait to see how it develops as well. In months and years to come.

Rich Bunker 50:59
It's very exciting, so excited.

Krissie Leyland 51:03
Thank you so much. Um,

Rich Bunker 51:06
And yeah, we'll speak again soon.

Krissie Leyland 51:10
If you'd like to find out more about Twelve you can head over to their website twelvefutures.com. And I will leave the link in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this conversation today, you'll love the MindfulCommerce community, head over to mindfulcommerce.io and click on community and I'll see you there!

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