The Incomparable Dr Cornell West

Connecting the Dots with Dr Wilmer Leon (audio)

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TRANSCRIPT:

Dr Wilmer Leon (00:13):
Welcome to the Connecting the Dots podcast with Dr. Wilmer Leon. I am Wilmer Leon. Here's the point. We have a tendency to view current events as though they occur in a vacuum, failing to understand the broader historical context in which most events take place. During each episode of this podcast, my guests and I will have probing, provocative, and in-depth discussions that connect the dots between the current events and the broader historic context in which they occur. This will enable you to better understand and analyze the events that impact the global village in which we live. On today's episode, we explore the presidential candidacy of Dr. Cornell West. If you go to Cornell West 2020 four.com, it opens with this brother, Cornell West is a living embodiment of the power of an independent mind forever reminding us that greatness is born of the courage to stand apart and speak one's truth.

(01:13)
To help me connect these dots, let's turn to my guest. He needs no introduction, but I'll say he is the Dietrich Bonhoeffer professor of philosophy and Christian practice at Union Theological Seminary. He's the former university professor at Harvard University and Professor Emeritus at Princeton University. He graduated magna cum laude from Harvard in three years and obtained his master's and PhD in philosophy at Princeton. He's the first black person to receive a PhD In more detail, let me say, he's written 20 books, edited 13 and has written numerous forwards as we'll talk about in. He's one a sacramental zone and affectionately known to many as Brother West, Dr. Cornell West. Welcome, and let's connect some dots.

Dr Cornel West (01:59):
I'm with you though, man. We putting smiles on our precious mama's faces. I know mom was there right there in the living room and in the kitchen when you got home and your precious mother had passed. But just think how blessed we are. I think it's very providential as well as significant that we could start this year together.

Dr Wilmer Leon (02:20):
In fact, I'm glad you mentioned our parents because what would your folks be thinking of their son in these efforts today?

Dr Cornel West (02:30):
Well, it's hard to say Mom and dad were unpredictable in terms of their judgment and highly predictable in terms of their deep, deep love though, brother, so that they would be loving me to death as they always did up until their death and they loved me now after death on their life. But I think it's hard to say they were such independent thinkers, you know what I mean?

Dr Wilmer Leon (02:53):
I do. I do know. Lemme put you another way then. What are the two or three most salient points or lessons that you carry forward that your parents instilled in you?

Dr Cornel West (03:09):
Oh, one is that you want to be in the world but not of it. So that you always recognize as standards bigger than you. You will always fall short of those standards, but never forget what they are. And those standards are always hope. And the greatest of them is love, love of God, love of neighbor, love of especially the least of these love, especially of poor and working people love especially of those friends from on called The Wretched Up the Earth. That's what I learned. West Household, you can see it, my brother Cliff, my sister, Cynthia and Cheryl, and you certainly can see it, Shiloh Baptist Church right on Ninth Avenue at Old Park Brother with Reverend Willie P. Cook and others. So those were the crucial things, not just the values in the abstract sense, but the virtues in the lived concrete sense of ways of being in the world, modes of existing, trying to be forces for good in the language of the great John Coltrane.

(04:05)
You see his various incarnation in terms of his faces on the albums here in the backdrop of my room. I think my dear wife Vanta for that and buying me this gift. It's a beautiful gift, but I think for them, the question becomes, are you being true to that calling? Are you being true to that vocation? Are you being true to that? Which tries to lure out of you the best who you are given the crack vessel that you are? And I take those insights and those lessons very, very seriously though, brother. So I wake up every morning, I say, Hey, crack vessel, that I am center, that I've always been. I'm going to be a force for good. I'm going to tell some truth. I'm going to bear some witness. I'm going to seek justice and I'm going to do it no matter what costs, no matter what burden, no matter what responsibility it entails, because that's what I'm here to do. And I'm going to do it with fun. Joy. I just finished the biography, brotherly Stone. Thank you. Wow. Letting me be myself. And he talks about Cynthia Robinson, you know, from Sacramento. Yes, beloved sister Anita Robinson. We went to high school together. He talked about Cynthia Robinson when he moved to Sacramento for a while, Sacramento inspirational choir. He had played Shiloh sometimes with Clarence Adams, Bobby Adams, and Brother Clarence.

Dr Wilmer Leon (05:33):
I didn't know that.

Dr Cornel West (05:34):
Oh yeah, yeah. I used to see Sylvester on the organ right there. Shiloh man.

Dr Wilmer Leon (05:40):
I did not. He's

Dr Cornel West (05:41):
From Vallejo.

Dr Wilmer Leon (05:42):
Yeah, I know he's from Vallejo, but I didn't know that he had spent time in Sacramento.

Dr Cornel West (05:47):
Oh Lord. Yes.

Dr Wilmer Leon (05:48):
It says on your site, even as a young child, you exhibited the remarkable qualities that would define your life's journey and path to the presidency. In the third grade, you fearlessly stood up to your teacher challenging her ideas and defining the conventional norms of your time. And that stands out to me because during the medal ceremony of the Olympics in 1968, Mexico City, as you recall, John Carlos and Tommy Smith raised their black glove fists during the playing of the national anthem. And on October 17th, the day after that, I went to school, raised my fist during the morning pledge of the allegiance, and I got kicked out of school. And I read that on your site and thought about the parallels of our lives. And here we sit today still challenging the dominant narrative and the ideas and defying the conventional norms of our time. And I think is a very good summary of your candidacy.

Dr Cornel West (06:59):
That's beautiful. But I think that's also an example though, brother, of how your precious mother and my precious mother and precious fathers as well tried to support into us examples of integrity, honesty, and decency. And when you have a flag that's waving, that's not signifying what it ought in terms of it's talking about liberty and justice for all, but you got lynching going on and you've got degradation, discrimination, segregation going on is just decent to have integrity, to have honesty is to call it into question. And when you do that, you're going to be in the world or not of it because you're going to be going against the grain. You're going to be going against what is popular in the name of what ought to have a certain kind of moral substance and spiritual content to it. And here that was how many years ago now? Man, that was 1968 is,

Dr Wilmer Leon (08:01):
Oh, that was

Dr Cornel West (08:02):
50, 52 years. Yeah, that's 56 years. You see, I refuse to salute the flag. My great uncle had been lynched in Texas and they wrapped the flag around his body. So that's what I associated as a young brother. Now that to me, I don't put other people down for salute the flag because some people see that flag and they think of their husband or their uncle or their wife who was killed in the war and they loved, they got right to support their loved ones, and they were fighting for that flag. But that's what goes in their mind. But my mind is the flag wrapped around the body s sw in the southern breeze, that strange fruit that Billie Holiday sing about. So everybody has their right to respond. Same was true with Brother Colin. When Colin saw that flag, he thought all of these young black brothers and sisters being killed, the police, yeah, he gets down. We can understand that somebody else see the flag and they think of their uncle, a great uncle in Hiroshima who's fighting against Japanese fascism. Sure. Everybody's got their lens through which they view the world. We have to be open to that. But most importantly, we got to be true to ourselves.

Dr Wilmer Leon (09:15):
In talking about your candidacy, you announced your candidacy in the People's Party switched to the Green Party, and now you're running as what you call a truly, truly a people's campaign that is a movement rooted in truth, justice, and love. Why the changes? And where are we with your candidacy today?

Dr Cornel West (09:39):
Yes, back in June, June 5th, it was the People's party that came forward. It met with myself and Brother Chris Hedges, my dear brother, I have great respect for, great love for. And they were kind enough to make the invitation. When I accepted the invitation, I realized very quickly that there were going to be some very deep challenges. There's going to be some very deep problems there. Chris Hedges and Jill Stein and Jammu Barack and others asked me to meet with the Green Party people and to see whether there's a possibility. We met, we made the shift to the Green Party. We worked very closely for a good while, and I realized that the Green Party had so many different requirements in terms of internal debates with presidential candidates going to different states and state conventions and so forth. And I wanted to go directly to the people because I've been going directly to the folk.

(10:33)
And I realized that even though the Green Party had 17 states in regard to ballot access, that I could actually get 15 or 16 states rather quickly. And that's precisely what we're doing now. We already got Alaska, we're moving on to Utah by eyes of March 15th. We should have, we hope a good 15 states or so. I would've caught up with the Green Party. But I have a freedom to really not just be myself more fully, but also to go directly to the people rather than spending so much time on inter-party activities that the Green Party requires. And so a lot of people say, well, you got false starts. I say, no, no, I'm a jazz man. That's first take. That's the first take.

Dr Wilmer Leon (11:23):
Folks can go to your website, Cornell West 2020 four.com, click on the platform tab and they can see a list of general areas such as economic justice, worker justice, environmental justice, and a number of others. And then below each of those, there are the bullet points that articulate your positions on those issues. And I'd like to get to this point, this particular point, because I think it allows us to speak to a number of things that are impacting not only this country but the world, and that is the United States supporting funding and arming genocide in Gaza. How does an American administration, the Biden administration with the backing of Congress, and particularly the Congressional Blackhawk Caucus, which is supposed to be the conscious of the Congress, how can they back this play?

Dr Cornel West (12:27):
Yeah, that's a wonderful question though, brother. I think we have to first begin by situating my campaign as a moment in a movement that's rooted in a great tradition of Martin Luther King, Jr. Fannie Lou Haman, rabbi Heschel and Dorothy Day. And what they were about was first there's a moral starting point. You see that a precious Palestinian baby has exactly the same value as your baby and my baby, an Israeli baby, a Haitian baby, an Egyptian baby, a Guatemalan baby, but there's been almost 9,000 babies killed a 50 some days. We can see just the level of baity there. Now, every life, no matter what color agenda for me, has the same value. There's no doubt about that. But you start with on a moral premise, then you got to move to your social analysis. How could it be that the United States, the American Empire, enables not just this genocidal assault that's been going on, but how has it enabled the apartheid regime for so long of Israel vis-a-vis those occupied territories with precious Palestinians have been subjugated and degraded.

(13:47)
How has it facilitated ethnic cleansing where you're seeing now almost 2 million fellow Palestinians who are pushed out of their land? Well, the same thing happened in 1948 with 750,000 Palestinians. They called Arabs at the time were pushed out. So you start on a moral note, and I begin on a spiritual note, just as a Christian, you know what I mean, that there's certain principles that I'm not going to give up. And there's oppressed peoples no matter where they are, no matter, it can be in cashmere, they can be in Chad, they can be in the south side of Chicago. They could be white brothers and sisters in Kentucky. They could be Latinos in South la. Their lives have exactly the same value as the lives of the rich and wealthy and famous. And when you proceed in that way, you have a set of lens that you're looking at the world that's very different from any of the parties because you see both parties, Republicans and Democratic parties have been so tied to Israel in a critical, Israel's been proceeding with impunity for decades, not just since October 7th for decades.

(14:57)
They've been able to do and say anything they want. They've been able to get billions and billions of dollars from taxpayers' money to the United States with no accountability whatsoever. And when people try to impose some accountability, be it United Nations or be it progressive Jews, or be it Palestinians or Arabs or other people around the world, Israel acts as if they can still do what they want to do with no answerability and no responsibility. They just proceed and do what they want to do. You say, well, wait a minute. And we've reached the point now where, oh, my brother, you got the invoking of Amalek, the first Samuel 15, and the third verse, what does that say in the Old Testament for Christians and Hebrew scripture from Jewish brothers and sisters, he would to kill every man, every woman, every child, every ox, every sheep. Well, that's genocidal intent.

(15:52)
And then you got genocidal execution when you got over 22,000. And that's just a modest count because you got so many in the rubble that are not counted, and the 9,000 children is just off the chart. I mean, it's just unimaginable that that could happen to so many precious children. You say, no, what is going on? Well, then you come back to United States and you say, wait a minute. Now we've got a politics where the lobby that is primarily responsible for the money that goes from the US government to Israel is one of the most powerful lobbies, not just in America, but in the history of the country, in the history of the country that owing to the high civic participation rate of Jewish Americans. And we talk about Jewish Americans, you're never talking about a monolith or a homogeneous group. You're talking about a variety of different kinds of Jews because we've seen the Jewish young people and Jewish progressives are as critical of Israel as I am,

Dr Wilmer Leon (16:57):
Jewish voices for peace,

Dr Cornel West (16:59):
That Jewish voices for peace. If not now, you've got a whole host of them that have been quite courageous in that regard. So it's not a matter and must never be a matter of anti-Jewish hatred, anti-Jewish sentiment. It's hating occupation, domination, subjugation. In this case, it's Israeli subjugation, Israeli domination, Israeli occupation. Now, the sad thing is,

Dr Wilmer Leon (17:27):
But wait a minute. It's also understanding the difference between Zionism and Judaism. And as much as the dominant narrative wants to try to equate those two, they are not the same. One is a religious practice, and the other for the most part is a political ideology.

Dr Cornel West (17:51):
That's exactly right. I mean, what makes it difficult really is that you see Jewish brothers and sisters have been terrorized and traumatized and hated over 2,500 years with different attacks, assaults, pogroms, culminating in the show and the Holocaust with the gangster Hitler and the gangster Nazis and so forth. And they jump out of the burning buildings of Europe and they're looking for a place to go. Zionism is a 19th century movement of nationalism that's looking for a home for Jews, a nation state for Jews, and they land on somebody else's land. It's like the pilgrims landing in the new world and saying, there's no people here. Yes, there are. Now of course, in America, what did they say? There's no human beings. There's just buffaloes and Indians. Hey, wait a minute, Indians are as human as you Europeans, we Africans, anybody else? Well, that's part of the deep white supremacy and racism that's happening.

(18:58)
What else was happening with Zionism? But they told a lie and they said, we got land with no people. That's not true. You got 750, got almost 1000080% of the population don't act like they don't exist. Oh, in your mind, they might be non-entities, but in God's eyes, in our eyes, they're human just like you and just like me. And so you end up with this ideology that responds to this indescribably vicious treatment of Jews for 2,500 years in the middle of Europe. So-called civilized Europe. Now, of course, Belgium already killed 7,000 Africans in Bellevue, Congo in the

Dr Wilmer Leon (19:39):
Congo, right?

Dr Cornel West (19:40):
Not too many Europeans said a mumbling word. Turkey had already killed Armenians with genocidal attacks. Europeans didn't say a mumbling word. Italy had already invaded Ethiopia. Europe didn't say a mumbling word. So you can already see the hypocrisy there. But what makes it difficult in the United States is that our Jewish brothers and sisters who are thoroughgoing Zionists, they use the fact that Jews have been hated for so long as a fundamental foundation of what they do and that they think allows them to rationalize, hating Palestinians, terrorizing Palestinians, traumatizing Palestinians. I'm against traumatizing, hating, terrorizing anybody, anybody. If black folk were terrorizing white folk, I'm going to defend white folk. If Palestinians are terrorizing Jews, I'm going to defend Jews. If Jews are terrorizing Palestinians, I'm going to defend Palestinians. That's morality and spirituality. Now, we live in a moment

Dr Wilmer Leon (20:54):
And consistency

Dr Cornel West (20:55):
And a certain kind of moral consistency that you try to hold on now. And I know, man, we live in a moment of such overwhelming baity man, organized greed, institutionalized hatred, routinized, indifference toward the suffering of others, especially the weak. So it's just a matter of the strong just thinking and the rich thinking. They can act and do anything. They like to crush the weak. And what happens now in the Middle East, especially in this situation with Gaza, is that you have Nathan, Yahoo, and others who are using the most reactionary tradition in the history of Zionism, which comes out of Jabotinsky that says that there will be Jewish security only when there's either Jewish domination of Palestinians or Jewish annihilation of Palestinians. That's in the writings of Jabotinsky. Netanyahu's father was an assistant to Jabotinsky that is a deeply, deeply right wing of not outright fascist version of Zionism. Now, there's liberal versions of Zionism that's very different, but even those liberal versions still want to argue that Palestinians would never have equality in their state have equal status in their state. And so we have to be able to put that in historical context. We have the right kind of morality and spirituality for people to understand why people like myself will never ever, ever be silent when it comes to Israeli genocidal attacks on Palestinians when it comes to Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. And when it comes to Israeli apartheid regime, that's why South Africa's taking him to the international court.

Dr Wilmer Leon (22:45):
How does a president Cornell West intervene, interject and change the trajectory of this ongoing genocide?

Dr Cornel West (22:57):
It means that the policy is qualitatively different than you get into Biden. It's clear that Biden has no concern for the most part with Palestinian suffering. No,

Dr Wilmer Leon (23:07):
He has said numerous times that he is a Zionist.

Dr Cornel West (23:10):
He's a Zionist. He doesn't talk about the numbers, he doesn't talk about the suffering. He doesn't talk about the unbelievable pain of Palestinians, not just now, but during the 40 some years he's been in office. You see? So from the very beginning, he makes it very, very clear that these Palestinian brothers and sisters don't count for me. Their lives don't really matter. Now, of course, we got memories of white supremacists in the United States. These black people don't count. These indigenous peoples don't count. They're just farter for our projects. We step on them like cockroaches. We crush them like they're creatures below. And you say, now, oh no, that's not my tradition. So as presidents especially shoot under a West administration, shoot, I'd be calling for the end of occupation, the end of the siege, a cease fire to sit down and come up with a way in which Jews and Palestinians can live together under conditions of equality, with equality under the law and equality in terms of assets to resources. So it's a qualitatively different way of looking at the world and proceeding in that part of the world.

Dr Wilmer Leon (24:32):
What about the most recent action of circumventing Congress and sending more arms, weaponry, and military resources to the genocide? What about how does a President Cornell West cut off the spigot of the funding?

Dr Cornel West (24:55):
Oh one, it is not just for me, just a matter of withdrawing aid and cutting off the spigot, but it's a matter of trying to get the leadership, Israeli leadership, Palestinian leadership, to sit down and come up with ways in which they can create a society in which they live together. And whatever financial support I provide is a financial support that would sustain that kind of egalitarian arrangement. There would not be a penny from a West administration for any apartheid regime, for any ethnic cleansing, and certainly not for any genocidal attack and assault on Palestinians or anybody else.

Dr Wilmer Leon (25:40):
So how do you negotiate with a Netanyahu who you just so accurately stated, his father was an advisor to Jinky who has compromised his own principles to go further, right, to formulate his government. And so with the Troches and all of those other genocidal maniacs,

Dr Cornel West (26:11):
That's right.

Dr Wilmer Leon (26:13):
How can you negotiate with someone who is sworn to the annihilation of an entire group of human beings?

Dr Cornel West (26:24):
Well, one, in any diplomatic process, you end up sitting down with people you disagree with. But you're absolutely right. It would not so much be a negotiation with the Nathan Yahu. It would be a teasing out of Israeli leadership that was open to egalitarian arrangement with Palestinians and teasing out the Palestinian leadership that's open to an egalitarian arrangement among Jews. So you really talking about trying to lure and to appeal to voices and figures and movements. The combatants for veterans, for example, that has Palestinians and Israelis working together, the Baim de meanies who are part of the Martin Luther King Jr tradition of struggling together Palestinians and Jews together, and even try to tease out some of the best of their labor movements, the trade union movements, Palestinian trade union movement, Israeli trade union movements where you do have some, not enough, but you got some overlap of people recognizing that Jews and Israelis can work together for something bigger than them. So you're right, it's not so much a matter of just negotiation, but it's a matter of withdrawal of funds. It's a matter of a certain kind of rejection. We've got to have some wholesale rejection of fascists. And that's true, not just as it relates to Israel and Nathan Yahoo, but that would be true for fascism in all of its various forms. It could be in Iran, it could be in Chad, it could be in Haiti, it could be anywhere. Fascism raises its ugly face.

Dr Wilmer Leon (28:20):
Moving this out to a slightly broader context, you have the United States through the US UN ambassador, Linda Thomas Greenfield vetoing the calls for a peace agreement in Gaza. Then you have the Ansara LA or the Houthis reaching a peace agreement or working, coming very, very close to a peace agreement with the Saudis and the United States intervening and saying, we will not accept that. We will not accept a peace agreement that we're going to label the Houthis as a terrorist organization, therefore Saudis will not be able to engage with the Houthis without incurring sanctions. Then you've got the conflict between Venezuela and Guyana, and they agree, I think in St. Croix, they come to an agreement and say, we're going to work on this peaceably. And then the United States gets Britain to send a warship off the coast of God. Point being, these are three within the last 10 days. These are three examples of entities in conflict agreeing to work for peace in the United States, injecting militarism into the negotiation. How does a President Cornell West put a stop to that?

Dr Cornel West (29:53):
One is my brother. We need exactly what you just did, which means you have to respect the people enough to tell them the truth. So a president also has to play a role of a teacher. See the large numbers of our fellow citizens, they don't really know the truth about the Middle East. They don't really know about the truth of Latin America. They don't really know about the truth of the ways in which the American Empire has been reshaping the whole world in its interest in image, both in Latin America for so long, when Latin America was viewed as a kind of a playground for America and all the various cos and Democratic elections overthrown by

Dr Wilmer Leon (30:30):
Chile, Argentina,

Dr Cornel West (30:32):
Chile, Argentina, Dominican Republic, Panama, Grenada. We can go on and on and on. When you look at how the US government has overthrown democratically elected governments when it was not in the interest of the corporate elite to accept those democratic elected democratic elections. But you have to just tell people the truth. But that in and of itself was a major move. That's a major move to tell people the truth. And then beyond that, to intervene and to act and you say, oh, now as president, based on the legacy of Martin King and Fannie Lou Hamer and others, and looking at the world through the lens of the least of these poor and working people, I'm going to be putting forward policies that strike you as so outside of the realm that you are used to because these two parties, Democrats and Republicans have been tied to big militarism abroad. Military adventurism abroad have been tied to overthrowing. Democratic regimes abroad have been tied to 57 cents for every dollar going to them. And oftentimes they get more than they request. But then there's austerity when it comes to education, when it comes to housing, when it comes to jobs with a living wage, when it comes to the healthcare and so forth. That's a very different way of looking at the world. I mean, the very idea of there being a US president who would be an anti-imperialist, and you see, I am a gut bucket.

(32:19)
And what I mean by that is that I want nations to be nations among nations. We do not need empires that try to get other nations to defer to their imperial dominance, to their imperial domination. The United States has 800 military units around the world over special operations in a hundred countries. China and Russia have hardly 35 or 40 combined. Why do we need 800 military units around the world? Why do we need a ship in every shore? Well, we got corporate interests, you got us geopolitical interests, and you've got elites in Washington who want to do what dominate the world. And that's precisely the thing that needs to be called into question. We can be a decent nation among nations. We can be a dignified nation among nations. We do not need to be an empire. Why? Because like the Roman Empire, like the British Empire, it's not only that they all dissolve, but they all have an arrogance and a hubris.

(33:31)
And his brother, Martin Luther King used to say, I can hear the God of the universe saying, I'll break your power if you keep crushing these poor people and acting as if you're doing in the name of liberty and equality, and you're really doing it in the name of your own greed, your own wealth and your own power. That's a great tradition, and we need to keep that tradition alive any way we can. I'm just trying to do it because the movement spills over into electoral politics. I'm going to be doing it till the day I die, and I've been doing it prior to being a candidate.

Dr Wilmer Leon (34:06):
So as you look at the development of the bricks, the new international economic organization that's Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, and then I think they've just admitted about another seven countries into the bricks as both President Xi in China as well as President Putin of Russia, have been talking about moving from the unipolar or the unilateral where the United States is in control of everything to a multilateral dynamic. How does a president Cornell West deal with the development of the bricks?

Dr Cornel West (34:45):
Well, one, you see, I look at the multilateralism through the same lens. I look at the unilateralism, us unilateralism on the one hand and the multi-country multilateralism because you see the multilateralism is still a combination of elite. And many of the countries that you talked about have high levels of repression and domination in their countries. I look at the world through the lens of the poor and the working classes in their respective countries, and I want United States to be in solidarity with the poor and working classes in India, for example, I'm not impressed by Modi. I know Modi is a Trump-like figure. I know Modi is not concerned about the poor. He's not concerned about the dollars, he's not concerned about the working class in India. So even when he, at those bricks meetings, I know he's not speaking on behalf of the masses of Indians.

(35:48)
He's speaking on behalf of that very ugly Hindu nationalist movement that he's a part. And so even when I look at the bricks, I know that that is a sign that US empire and US power is waning, but it's not as if simply because they're outside of the United States, that they're not subject to the same criticism, the same standards as the United States itself is. They have their own elites. They have their own policies that do not speak to satisfying the needs of their own poor and their own working class or their own women, or those who are outside of the dominant religion. Look at the Muslims in India. I'm concerned about them. No Modi's a Hindu nationalist, very narrow one at that because there's many Hindus who oppose him as well. And the same would be true in the other countries as well, even South Africa, as you know, I have tremendous respect for the legacy of a Nelson Mandela or sister.

(36:57)
I had a chance to meet both of them when I was in South Africa. But the South African government today, it doesn't speak to the needs of poor and working class South Africans. I'll say that the brother Cyril, I have great respect for Brother Cyril, and I'm so glad he's taking Israel to the court, the International Court of Justice, no doubt about that. And I believe all the nations need to be called into question if they commit war crimes, Hamas itself commits war crimes. But those war crimes are not crimes of genocide. There are war crimes. They're wrong, they're unjust, but there's not an attempt to act as if they're trying to wipe out a people war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes of genocide. Three different levels. And it's very important to always distinguish them so that when we talk about bricks, I still don't want us to in any way assume that just because you get an Indian face or a Brazilian face or an African face, that somehow they are concerned about the poor and working classes in their own respective nations. Most of them are not. Most of them are part of their own bourgeoisie. They're part of their own professional classes that look down and do not put the needs of poor and working people at the center of their government. And Nelson Mandela, for example, in some ways turning over in his grave, when you look at the situation of poor people in Soweto and what he was trying to do when he emerged out of that jail cell,

Dr Wilmer Leon (38:36):
Is there an attack on independent thought and a growing sense of anti-intellectualism in the United States? That we look at the rise of the attacks on social media sites. We look at the attacks on independent journalists, the recent resignation of former Harvard President, Claudine Gay, Harvard's first African-American president and a female, and particularly looking at the manner in which she was done away with accusing her of plagiarism. So not only removing her from her position as president, but doing it in a manner of attacking her very character as a scholar, which seems like they almost want to see to it that she never gets another job. And I in her life, is there an attack on intellectualism and you truly as an intellectual, speak to that, please?

Dr Cornel West (39:38):
Yeah. Well, one is that United States has always been a deeply anti-intellectual country. The business of America is business. America's always been highly suspicious of those voices. That's why they put a bounty on the head of Ida B. Wells. They put a bounty on the head of Frederick Douglass. That's why they murdered Martin Luther King and Malcolm. That's why they kept Paul Robeson under house arrest at 46 45 Walnut Street in Philadelphia. Why they put Du Bois under House of West A 31 grace place in Brooklyn. It's why Eugene Debbs had to run for president from the sale he ran on the Socialist Park. All he was doing was just giving speeches critical of the war. So America has always had a deep anti-intellectual impulse. It is certainly at work today and certainly is manifest today. And you're right. I'm glad you mentioned Sister Gay because I think it's a very sad situation. It shows what happens when you get a little small group of highly wealthy figures, billionaire figures in this case, primarily Jewish figures, who feel as if they can shape and reshape an institution by either withholding their monies or bringing power and pressure to bear to try to eliminate. Dear Sister Gay, they had these major buses with her picture on it right in front of Harvard Yard, national Disgrace.

(41:09)
They're organized in front of her house, and she got what she calls racial animus and these threats that she received. It's a very ugly and a vicious thing. But you know, there's an irony there, which is that, as you know, just a few years ago, I was actually pushed out of Harvard.

Dr Wilmer Leon (41:30):
That's why I'm asking you this

Dr Cornel West (41:31):
Question. pro-Palestinian stances. I was a faculty advisor to the Palestinian student Group, and they made it very clear that they were not going to have tenured faculties who had strong pro-Palestinian sensibilities, strong pro-Palestinian convictions. Now, at that time, sister Gay was head of the faculty. She was dean of the faculty, which is third in charge after the provost Larry be Kyle, Alan Garber, Claudine gay. And at that time, it was hard for her to come forward and support of me. No, and I didn't want to put her in a position. I know she was new. I know that she's betw and between, but the irony is that her silence at that time about those forces now comes back, or those same forces come back at her.

Dr Wilmer Leon (42:34):
And what's that adage? When they came for the Jews, I didn't say anything because I wasn't a Jew. When they came for the Christians, I didn't say anything because I wasn't a Christian, blah, blah, blah. By the time they got to me, wasn't nobody left to defend.

Dr Cornel West (42:47):
Nobody left. Now see, many of us still supported her because it's a matter of principle. It's a deep, deep racism belief because what is happening right now, as you know, when you look at Ackerman, you look at Bloom, you look at Summers, the folk who are very much behind these things, what they're saying is, is that all of the black folk at Harvard, for the most part, do not belong because they didn't get there based on merit and excellence. They got there because of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And we're calling all of that into question. You just read the recent piece by Brett Stevens, the New York Times. He's the same brother who says, anybody who calls it genocide must be antisemitic. And yet the next moment Nathan Yahu can call Hamas attack on precious Israelis genocidal. But that's not anti Palestinian. Oh, no, no. See, the double standards, the hypocrisy is so overwhelming that it's hard to even sit still.

(43:47)
And so now we are in a situation where it's not just the Harvards and University of Pennsylvanias and others, but you've got now these groups that say, we will dictate who your president is. We will dictate what the criteria is of who gangs, assets, and professorships. We will even dictate some of the content of your curriculum because we got all this money. We got our names on the buildings, we will withhold it. Now, it's not exclusively Jewish, but it is disproportionately Jewish because it has to do with the issue of antisemitism. And you and I, we fight antisemitism. We're not going to allow Jewish brothers and sisters to get degraded and demeaned, but we are not going to allow Palestinians to get degraded and demeaned, let alone black folk get degraded and demeaned. And it's very interesting. You see, when they come for us, you don't get a whole lot of defense and concern about free expression cancellation. The same groups that were against cancellation now, not just canceling a president, but forcing a president out.

Dr Wilmer Leon (44:57):
Where's the Congressional Black Caucus in defending her?

Dr Cornel West (44:59):
Oh, congressional Black Caucus is about as weak as pre-seed Kool-Aid. They ain't going to do nothing. So much of they money comes out of the big lobby, APEC and so forth. But also we could say naacp Sharpton n Urban League, so much of their money comes out of Jewish elites so that they got a noose around their neck. They can't say anything. They're not free. They're not free. Can you imagine John Coltrane showing up at the club and they got this scarf around his neck where he can't blow what he wants to blow. And they say, we want you to sound like you're playing Mozart. He said, yeah, I can play Mozart, but I feel like playing Love Supreme. I got to be free. We don't have enough free black folk. They locked in. They accommodated. They well adjusted the injustice

Dr Wilmer Leon (46:02):
On the domestic front as we move towards the 2024 election, and we see that Biden's numbers have, he's hustling backwards. He's around somewhere between 37 and 40% and on the wane, but one of the things that they're going to tout is omics. And what doesn't seem to get articulated in this discussion about omics is the financialized side of the economy is doing great. If you have a 401k, you are as happy as a clam. If you are invested in stock market, you are invested. You are just ecstatic at how well your portfolio has grown. But homelessness is up in America. Oh, yeah. Homelessness has reached a level in this country. The likes we have not seen in years.

Dr Cornel West (46:58):
That's right.

Dr Wilmer Leon (46:58):
So how, two things, one, how do the Democrats square that circle of omics doing so well, but I'll just say poverty as a overall blanket term is on the rise in America when in fact, the Democrats canceled the extra monies that were going into the Wix programs and the other child poverty programs during the Covid era, which I think came out of the Trump administration. And then what does a president Cornell West do?

Dr Cornel West (47:32):
Yes, again, you see, following the legacy of Brother Martin King, I'm an abolitionist when it comes to poverty. I want to abolish poverty. We could abolish poverty nearly overnight if we had a disinvestment from significant sums in the military and reinvestment in jobs with a living wage, basic income support, housing, and free healthcare for all. We could do that. We have spent $5.6 trillion for wars in 20 years. We could abolish poverty with a small percentage of that.

Dr Wilmer Leon (48:17):
And wait a minute,

Dr Cornel West (48:18):
And wait a minute.

Dr Wilmer Leon (48:18):
Wait a minute. Wars that we have started. Yes, we started a conflict in Afghanistan.

Dr Cornel West (48:25):
That's

Dr Wilmer Leon (48:26):
True. We started the Ukraine, Russian conflict.

Dr Cornel West (48:29):
Iraq, yes.

Dr Wilmer Leon (48:30):
We started, we went in and bombed Iraq.

Dr Cornel West (48:33):
That's right.

Dr Wilmer Leon (48:34):
We went in and assassinated Kaddafi.

Dr Cornel West (48:37):
That's

Dr Wilmer Leon (48:37):
True. And Kaddafi warned Barack Obama, don't mess with them. Folks in the West, you have no idea who you're dealing with, do not mess with them. And the United States, and we are right now trying our damnedest to start a fight with China. With

Dr Cornel West (48:54):
China,

Dr Wilmer Leon (48:55):
So the Lockheed Martins of the world and the Raytheons of the world. That's

Dr Cornel West (48:58):
Right.

Dr Wilmer Leon (49:01):
We are, it's a money laundering scheme. We're taking our hard earned tax dollars, starting fights around the world. And then Lockheed Martin comes in saying, oh, I got the solution. Let's sell 'em some more F 30 fives and let's sell 'em some more tomahawk cruise missiles at a million dollars a copy.

Dr Cornel West (49:20):
That's right.

Dr Wilmer Leon (49:22):
I interrupted you, sir.

Dr Cornel West (49:23):
No, but you are absolutely right. And you think about this though. You got 62% of our fellow citizens are living paycheck to paycheck. 50% of our fellow citizens have 2.6% of the wealth. 1% has 40% of the wealth, and of course, three individuals in the country have wealth equivalent to 50% of Americans. That's 160 million. 160 million has wealth equivalent to three individuals. Now, all the omics in the world, the world does not address that kind of grotesque wealth inequality. This is the kind of thing brother Bernie Sanders was rightly talking about. Now, Bernie hasn't been as strong as he ought on the Middle East, hasn't been as strong as ought on a number of different issues. But when it comes to Wall Street greed, when it comes to grotesque wealth inequality, he still hits the nail on the head. And if we're serious, I was just with my dear brother, pastor Q and others down at Skid Row here in la, because you got almost 40,000 precious brothers and sisters in Los Angeles had their own skid row, their own city, 40% of 'em black, 90% of the town is black.

Dr Wilmer Leon (50:39):
Sounds like Oakland to me.

Dr Cornel West (50:41):
Well, yeah, Oakland and I

Dr Wilmer Leon (50:44):
Sounds like Sacramento to me,

Dr Cornel West (50:45):
Sister. Sound like s though I live in Harlem, sound like

Dr Wilmer Leon (50:50):
Over there near Cal Expo in Sacramento, along the American River where all those encampments are.

Dr Cornel West (50:56):
That's exactly right. I mean, it is a crime and a shame that the richest nation in the history of the world and the history of the species still has that kind of poverty. And of course, it goes even beyond that because you've got fossil fuel companies with their greed leading toward ecological catastrophe and the calling and the question, the very possibility of life on the planet if we don't come to terms with the shift from fossil fuel to renewable and regenerative forms of energy. So that, I mean, part of this is the philosophical question, which is to say, how is it that we, human beings are just so downright wretched, what we used to talk about in Shiloh, the hounds of hell, greed, hatred, envy, resentment, fear all used and manipulate it to crush each other. That's so much the history of who we are as a species, but we're also wonderful. We have the capacity to be better, to think, to feel, to love, to organize, to be in solidarity, but those who are suffering to have empathy and compassion and those two sides, the wretchedness and the wonderfulness,

Dr Wilmer Leon (52:16):
The yin and the yang,

Dr Cornel West (52:17):
The yin and the yang, the ugliness and the beauty of a smile, a grin, the beauty of a friendship and a love, the beauty of a mama and a daddy. The beauty of people marching, fighting for something bigger than them. The beauty of being in solidarity with Palestinians and Gaza right now, given the indescribable realities that they have to deal with. But same is true with solidarity, with our brothers and sisters in Sudan, with brothers and sisters in India, brothers Jews in Russia, whoever it is who's catching hell, we ought to be open to our solidarity. Why? Because that fights against the greed and the hatred and the fear and the wretchedness manifest in who we are as a species.

Dr Wilmer Leon (53:08):
As I was trying to figure out how to close this conversation. Well, you know what, before I get to that, let me ask you this. As you are now not only talking to America, but talking to the world, what are the three salient very important things that you want, those that are listening to this podcast, watching this podcast, other than you being brilliant and being from Sacramento and Southland Park Drive like me, what is it that you want the audience to really understand about Dr. Cornell West?

Dr Cornel West (53:51):
I want them to understand that I come from a great people of black people who after being terrorized, traumatized, and hated for 400 years, have continually dished out love warriors, freedom fighters, joy shares, and wounded healers. And I'm just a small little wave in that grand ocean. And what sits at the center of that great tradition of black folk just like this, John Coltrane I got it could have been, could be Aretha, could be Luther Vandross, could be a whole host of others, could be a Phil Randolph early by Russian. Rusty is courage to think critically and quest for truth, the courage to act compassionately and in pursuing justice. And then also the courage to love and laugh. To laugh at yourself, to know that you a cracked vessel, to know that you try again, fell again and fell better. That nobody's a messiah, nobody's a savior. We're here to make the world just a little better than we found it. As Reverend Cook used to tell us, if the kingdom of God is within us, then everywhere we go, we ought to leave a little heaven behind.

Dr Wilmer Leon (55:09):
Amen, my brother. Amen. Let me, so I was trying to figure out how to end this conversation, and it dawned on me as I was going from idea to idea. I said, I've got a piece. This is from a book, knowledge, power, and Black Politics by Dr. Mack h Jones, who I think,

Dr Cornel West (55:38):
Oh, he's a giant. He's a giant,

Dr Wilmer Leon (55:40):
And I went to this. It's a collection of essays that he's written over the years and chapter 17, Cornell West, the insurgent black intellectual race matters. A critical comment, and this is part of what Mack writes. Cornell West has established himself as one of the leading political thinkers of our time, and it is fitting and appropriate that we pause and reflect on his ideas. When we engage in such an exchange of ideas, we continue a long enduring tradition within the black community that goes to the beginning of our sojourn on these shores in spite of what our detractors want to say. Principled dialogue and debate have always been a part of black cultural life in the United States, and it is alive and well even as we speak. I've been familiar with West Scholarship for quite some time. I've read and studied most of his published works and found them for the most part to be challenging, insightful, and often provocative.

(56:53)
I've used some of his essays in my classes with good results. They address issues and problems essential to our survival and evolution as a people, and he makes us think more deeply about them. Professor West is a decided asset to us as a people and to the human family in general. And so to that, I ask the audience, or I want to leave the audience with this, I'm not going to be presumptuous enough to try to tell people how they should vote or who they should vote for. I merely ask them to consider this. Do you want a former President Trump, a man who Senator Lindsey Graham called a race baiting, xenophobic bigot, and a jackass? Now, that's not me. That's Lindsey Graham. Or do you want a President Biden, who is in a state of cognitive decline, started a war in Ukraine, trying to start a war with China, is a self-proclaimed Zionist who is backing funding and supporting genocide? Or do you want to consider a man who the brilliant Dr. Mack h Jones says makes us think more deeply about these issues? He is a decided asset to us as a people and to the human family in general. My brother, Dr. Cornell West with that, what you got, man, wow.

Dr Cornel West (58:33):
You moved me very deeply though. Mac Jones was one of the great giants that he invited me to come to Prairie Review, and he was teaching there, and he and I talked together, wrestled together. I learned so much from him. I really just sat at his feet. He was just so, so kind. Adolf Reed worked with him as well, with Mack Jones there at Atlanta University, but for you to read his words at the beginning of 2024, you don't know what that means to me though, man, because I had such deep love and respect for Mack Jones, and he has such a, it is like Brother Ron at Howard Walters, and he has, he's the

Dr Wilmer Leon (59:17):
Reason I have a PhD in political science is because of him.

Dr Cornel West (59:20):
Is that right?

Dr Wilmer Leon (59:21):
Yeah. I studied under him. I went to Howard and studied on him in Howard.

Dr Cornel West (59:24):
Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Because both of those brothers, they were at the peak of academic achievement, but they had such a deep love for the people, the love for black people, a love for oppressed people, a love for people catching hell everywhere in the world, and to see that in the flesh in him meant so much to me, and for you to read those words just fires me up, brother. It fortifies me. I think I'm going run on and see what the end going be.

Dr Wilmer Leon (59:59):
Well, Dr. Cornell West 2024 candidate for President of the United States, I want to thank you for joining me today. I want to thank you for connecting the dots

Dr Cornel West (01:00:11):
As a young brother for me. This is 35 years ago, and I'm talking about Mac Jones. You see, it just meant the world to me, and I'd seen it before in other examples, but to be able to see it. Thank you, my brother. Love you. Respect your man,

Dr Wilmer Leon (01:00:24):
Man, and you know I love you folks. Thank you so much for listening to the Connecting the Dots podcast with me, Dr. Wi Leon, and stay tuned for new episodes every week. Also, please follow and subscribe. Leave a review. Please share the show. Follow us on social media. You can find all the links below because remember that this is where the analysis of politics, culture, and history converge in the show description. Talk without analysis is just chatter, and we don't chatter on connecting the dots. See you again next time. Until then, I'm Dr. Wilmer Leon. Have a good one. Peace and blessings. I'm out