Is Substack the Best Platform for Writers? Jane Friedman’s Expert Opinion

Ann Kroeker, Writing Coach

Is Substack the best platform for writers? Is it right for you?

In this interview, publishing expert Jane Friedman explores Substack’s social media-like features, blogging-like functionality, podcast-host possibilities…and its implications for writers. From using Substack “Notes” to community cross-promotion, it’s an ecosystem worth understanding.

Substack is more than just newsletters—it’s a blog, social media, podcast host, and email marketing tool all-in-one platform. Perfect for beginners, but should we trust it with all of our content?

Learn the pros and cons of Substack on our latest episode of the “Ann Kroeker, Writing Coach” podcast after skimming the show notes and summary below.

But first…

Meet Jane Friedman:

Jane Friedman has 25 years of experience in book publishing, with expertise in business strategy for authors and publishers. She’s the co-founder and editor of The Hot Sheet, a paid newsletter about the book publishing industry with over 2,500 subscribers, and has previously worked for Writer’s Digest and the Virginia Quarterly Review. In 2023, Jane was awarded Publishing Commentator of the Year by Digital Book World.

Jane’s website, janefriedman.com, offers a wealth of resources for authors. She writes many of the articles herself and also features guest writers who are experts in various aspects of writing and publishing. You may have followed some of the many links I’ve shared in my own newsletter, as Jane’s content and curation of expert input consistently provides top-notch education and encouragement for writers across genres.

Jane’s most recent book is The Business of Being a Writer (sponsored post/affiliate link to Amazon) (University of Chicago Press), which received a starred review from Library Journal. And a new edition is to be released in Spring 2025.

Jane is everywhere. She’s been in The New York Times, The Atlantic, CNN, Wired, BBC, The Guardian, CBC, The Washington Post, Fox News, USA Today, and NPR.

And now she’s here on the “Ann Kroeker, Writing Coach” podcast, discussing Substack for writers.

Mentioned in the show (it’s a lot!):

• Read Jane’s thorough and thoughtful analysis of Substack from March 2024: https://janefriedman.com/substack-is-both-great-and-terrible-for-authors/
• Sign up for Jane’s free newsletter, Electric Speed, or see if The Hot Sheet, her paid newsletter for publishing professionals, is right for you.
• Leigh Stein (switched from offering a free MailChimp newsletter to offering a paid Substack): the website signup page: https://www.leighstein.com/newsletter | direct link to “Attention Economy” substack: https://leighstein.substack.com/
• Ann mentions paying for George Saunders’ “Story Club” substack: https://georgesaunders.substack.com/
• And paying for Jeannette Ouellette’s “Writing in the Dark” substack: https://writinginthedark.substack.com/
• Article in The Verge about the Substack controversy about Nazis using the platform: https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/8/24030756/substack-nazi-newsletter-content-moderation
• Alternatives to Substack include Beehiiv https://www.beehiiv.com/ and Ghost. https://ghost.org/
• All the Substack newsletters Jane subscribes to here: https://substack.com/@janefriedman/reads
• Courtney Maum’s “Before and After the Book Deal” https://courtneymaum.substack.com/
• Elle Griffin’s “Elysian Press” (Jane warned that her decision to unsubscribe from all substacks and only use the app means she’s encouraging others to do the same and will lose all of her own subscribers): https://www.elysian.press/
• Dr. Jen Gunter’s “The Vajenda”: https://vajenda.substack.com/
• Peter Schoppert’s “AI and Copyright” substack: https://aicopyright.substack.com/
• Benedict Evans’ tech analysis newsletter on his own solution (possibly MailChimp with Memberful, a WordPress plugin to manage the subscription version): https://www.ben-evans.com/newsletter
• Helen Lewis’s The Bluestocking as patron model substack: https://helenlewis.substack.com/
• John Warner’s patronage model: https://substack.com/@biblioracle
• The Tangle news source, by Isaac Saul, mentioned by Jane as an example of subscription model with free and paid that is not using Substack: https://www.readtangle.com/
• Peter Attia – no way would he be on Substack, having built an empire on his own website
• Ann’s Substack, “Story Hatchery”: https://annkroeker.substack.com

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Jane Friedman Substack Interview Transcript:

Ann Kroeker [00:00:00]:
I’m Ann Kroeker, writing coach. If you’re tuning in for the first time, welcome. If you’re a regular, welcome back. Today, you’ve joined hundreds of established and emerging writers who are discovering ways to reach their writing goals and have fun by being more curious, creative, and productive. And this is the Ann Kroeker Writing Coach Podcast. Today, I have publishing expert Jane Friedman on the show. If you don’t know Jane yet, you should and you will. Let me tell you just a little bit about her.

Ann Kroeker [00:00:28]:
Jane has 25 years of experience in book publishing. She’s the co founder and editor of The Hot Sheet. It’s a paid newsletter about the book publishing industry with over 2,500 subscribers, myself included. She has previously worked for Writer’s Digest and Virginia Quarterly Review. In 2023, Jane was awarded publishing commentator of the year by Digital Book World. Her book, The Business of Being a Writer, received a starred review from Library Journal and is coming up with a new updated edition in 2025. And Jane is everywhere. She’s often a keynote speaker at writing conferences.

Ann Kroeker [00:01:03]:
She’s been in the Atlantic, BBC, NPR. I mean, you name it. She’s probably been featured there in some way. And now she’s featured right here on the Ann Kroeker Writing Coach podcast. So let’s welcome her. Well, welcome Jane Friedman. It’s good to have you on the show.

Jane Friedman [00:01:17]:
Thank you, Ann.

Ann Kroeker [00:01:18]:
So when I asked you to be on the show, you you right away said sure, which was really refreshing and fun. And then I asked you, what would you like to discuss that you haven’t been able to explore as much as you’d like on other events, podcasts, speaking engagements, whatever. And right away, you said, sub stack. And I am curious why that came to mind so quickly and then why that was top of mind.

Why Jane picked Substack to Discuss

Jane Friedman [00:01:40]:
Well, it’s something that writers ask me about on a almost daily basis. And it’s a really complicated issue. And so it’s hard to give a single answer without getting into really like a 30-minute discussion about that writer’s background, their goals, you know, it’s it’s and and I too feel torn personally as someone who’s really invested in newsletters as a format, both to deliver great writing and content and as a marketing tool. Like, even I don’t use Substack, after developing a really robust list. I don’t feel like I need to, but I’m still drawn to it, because it does have this marketing power and networking power associated with it.

I think the confusing thing for so many folks is that you can still be active on Substack, and I am, without sending your newsletter through it. So in any event, there are all of these different layers to it. And oh, and then just to throw another variable in there, I don’t think Substack is always operating in a way that I think is what? Well, let’s put it this way.

Jane Friedman [00:02:53]:
They’re funded by venture capital. They’re gonna have to turn a profit at some point. And so there’s I have, you know, I never quite trust companies that aren’t yet turning a profit, which may be unfair, but there it is.

Ann Kroeker [00:03:06]:
Well and that’s why we’re having this conversation so that we can inform people who tune in. We can’t personalize it. Like you said, we can’t have that 30-minute conversation with an individual, but hopefully, we’ll give them enough information. They can make some decisions for themselves. So I’m all in as well on this conversation. And in full disclosure, I have a substack. Now I have kept just sort of like you mentioned, and I think we need to actually sort of define and explain it next. But, I do have one because I wanted to understand it.

Ann Kroeker [00:03:33]:
Like you, I was attracted to the concept, like, what is this thing and how is it working? And, oh, that’s kind of neat. So I decided I needed enough difference between my coaching emails, which loosely could be categorized as marketing, but I don’t think of it that way. These are the coaching emails that go out on a more or less regular basis. The attempt is every other week. But then I I thought I need something different. So I called it story hatchery, but I did get my name, which is something I always recommend to people when something new comes along, grab your name. So I have ankroeker.substack.com.

Ann Kroeker [00:04:04]:
So I got my name, sat on it for a long time, then decided I’m gonna do something called Story Hatchery, and it’ll be more of my personal stories still with a writing angle, but that’s what I’m doing over there. So and what I mean by full disclosure is I’m there, and I kinda like it. Mhmm. And so I bet people who I have people who don’t have any idea what Substack is, so they must not even subscribe to Substack newsletters, or they don’t realize that they are. So how about we take a minute, and you do, your best to try to describe all the different moving parts of Substack and how what it is it?

Jane Describes What Substack Is (and it’s not as easy as you’d think)

Jane Friedman [00:04:35]:
What is it? So when it first launched, and this is, I don’t know, in the mid 2010s, I believe, maybe 2017 when it first started really people started noticing it as a platform. I feel like it was positioning itself primarily as this is a great way to do a paid newsletter. Now it’s important to understand that at the time, this was kind of a novel idea. I hate to say novel idea because I was running a paid newsletter before Substack was established. There are lots of paid newsletters that have been out there for many years, but you really had to be technically savvy. You had to know e-commerce. You had to be able to identify the right subscription management system. And that’s just above and beyond having a decent website usually as a base of operation.

Substack as Paid Newsletter

Jane Friedman [00:05:26]:
So it was no small thing to go into the paid newsletter environment, until Substack came along and really automated every part of the process in a way that was a writer with absolutely no technical skill could set one up in less than an hour. So it’s hard to overstate just how kind of revolutionizing that part of it was. And when I saw it, you know, after I already had established my paid newsletter, I mean, I did think, “Why weren’t you here when I began my journey? It would have been so much easier.”

But by that time once you do all the work and you get invested in your own systems you know it’s some people have switched over but I’ve been pretty stubborn and have not. So that’s where it started. But as time progressed, you know, it I think they I’m not gonna say they they’ve pivoted, but they’ve started adding in a lot of functionality that I would say is more geared towards the first time writer or a creator, if we want to use that word, who may or may not understand what it takes to actually have a successful paid subscription. And there’s a lot of people doing stuff on there that’s really strictly for free.

Jane Friedman [00:06:40]:
They may or may not have the intention to charge. So I would I dare say that there are far more like free newsletter sorts of efforts on Substack at this point than paid, but that there’s kind of like this carrot that’s always being dangled. Oh, you could earn money if only you followed this certain formula or you were able to do XYZ and Substack is of course encouraging that because that’s how they make money is if you charge, because you’re paying 0 to Substack, you, you pay them a percentage of whatever your readers pay.

As if that weren’t enough, you now have Substack—I’m gonna say this is a couple years ago launching like us or maybe it was like a year and a half. In any event—a social media network on top of it. Basically a Twitter clone as Twitter started to degrade for reasons we won’t go into. And people were looking for other options.

Substack’s Social Media & Blog-Like Features

Jane Friedman [00:07:36]:
You know, I think Substack rightly saw an opportunity and they created the social media layer. And so people can use that even if they’re not sending a newsletter. You can have your Substack profile where it reveals what Substack you’re reading.

And I didn’t even mention you can comment on Substack. It’s really like a blogging technology in addition to a newsletter technology, because every issue you send ends up being put on your Substack profile or website, which can be read by the public. Even if they don’t subscribe, even if they don’t give you their email address, assuming you allow for that (you have the toggles, you can control it however you wish).

And then parallel to that social network being put in place, they also really amped up the recommendation factor—people recommending each other’s newsletters. And so what people quickly realized is boy, it’s really hard to get growth for an email newsletter in isolation from every other newsletter or creator out there, which is how it worked prior to Substack, you know? Your newsletter issues really aren’t discoverable via Google unless you’re doing something special. But that’s not the case on Substack.

Jane Friedman [00:08:51]:
So you have this really interesting dynamic where Substack is both giving you the technology, and they wanna say very much they’re a technology company. But they’re also clearly kind of a social media or marketing platform as well. And they do have ways to make writers more visible on their platform. And they are making decisions that would be comparable to the decisions that a social media company might make, like the algorithms and the feeds and, and all the rest of it. Okay. I should pause there and we can explore any other part of the system.

Ann Kroeker [00:09:29]:
Well, and I think you bring out all these different things where it makes it really it is hard to describe what it is because it has so many pieces to it, so many aspects to it. You mentioned how it’s almost like a website, but with the blogging functionality, with that commenting, and people are actually commenting, which they aren’t so much on traditional blog posts. You’ve got the notes, which is like Twitter. You’ve got, then the ability to send that out to subscribers into their inbox. So in that sense, it’s sort of like email marketing, and then you’ve got the you didn’t mention podcasting or audio. You know, that’s another thing they started doing, and and I have some people who are actually starting their podcast, hosting it there, a public-facing podcast, and then they get the subscribers.

Substack Grows Email List (is it an Email Service Provider?)

Jane Friedman [00:10:11]:
You know,

Ann Kroeker [00:10:11]:
they get some of at least some of the emails. As you point out, there are some that will listen publicly and never come over, but some we’ll get some of them as subscribers. So it’s—it is a lot. It’s very alluring, but also very confusing because now I’ve got people…So I have writing clients who say, “Well, why do I need something like ConvertKit or mail MailerLite now, if I can send my email?”

Well, it depends on how you wanna market to people or send emails. Do you do you wanna be clear about who gets what? Then it may be a little tricky, and they say, why can’t I connect the 2? And then I’m like, well, because if they unsubscribe over here, you need to have a system for Right. Unsubscribing them over there. So it does get a little complicated with all those moving parts.

Ann Kroeker [00:10:45]:
That said, I have some people who they just wanted a quick get up and writing. And I thought, you know, you might wanna just check out Substack to do it for free, like you pointed out there, not necessarily to to pay. And it allowed them to get up and running right away because it because it is so simple, which is a complaint a lot of people have is that it’s not got very many, design options, for example. Right. But they did get up and running, and they’re writing. And they’re getting some readers. I have one person who started from scratch and has one of her posts, which is that the posting option you mentioned, one of those went viral, like, really viral. She used to have, like, 2 or no reactions, and then she had, like, over 2,000.

Ann Kroeker [00:11:23]:
And a lot of those people then became subscribers. And so she immediately was able to grow that readership. So, you know, it has some possibilities and potential there via hit the right spots at the right time. And you’re in that ecosystem of Substack. There can be some advantages, but, I know, you know, you’ve already revealed a little bit of some of the dangers and concerns you have. Yeah.

So I guess it might be interesting to talk about maybe some use cases you think are it’s particularly good for and then some things to watch out for. So maybe let’s look at pros and cons, you know, good things and bad things, things you like Yeah.

Ann Kroeker [00:11:57]:
Warning signs Yeah. That kind of thing.

The Pro’s for Substack for Writers

Jane Friedman [00:11:59]:
The ease of use and how I mean, for some people who feel like there are too many substacks, maybe they don’t like the ease of use and the fact that everyone now has the substack. But that really does help writers get over some initial hurdles.

And since I’m such a proponent of email as as a powerful way to communicate with readers, I like the idea that people can just get started easily without having to pay for, a more sophisticated service, at least in my estimation, If you’re doing marketing like a MailerLite or a MailerChimp or Mailchimp which can be intimidating to people and plus there’s often a cost associated with it unless you’re even the free plans I find they’re pretty undesirable because they don’t have functionality you probably really want if you’re serious about sending an email newsletter, rather than Substack, you get all the functionality no matter what.

So I do like it as a way as like, kind of like an easy, lightweight start for someone who’s beginning that journey, especially if if they don’t even have their own author website yet, even though I would encourage them to have one. Like, Substack can be a lightweight method to have that website because it allows you to add pages, but it doesn’t require you to know web design. Right? So and and, again, you’re not paying any money and it’s hard to beat the fact you’re not paying any money.

Case Study: Leigh Stein’s Move to Substack

Jane Friedman [00:13:25]:
And I have seen people who have had what I would call, like, sporadic newsletters or maybe they just had they’ve been for some reason, it’s a weak effort and they’ve never really settled into it. And they’re paying to have this, like, a Mailchimp, which is quite expensive. They’re paying to send it, but they just don’t feel like their their stuff is being shared or it’s reaching a new audience. So those people in particular, I will see them migrate everything over to Substack and then take off in a way that they had not before.

So an example of this might be, Leigh Stein. Like I already knew who Leigh Stein was and I subscribed to her email newsletter. I think she was on Mailchimp. And then within the past year or so, she went entirely all in as far as I understand on Substack.

Jane Friedman [00:14:11]:
And just recently, she started charging. So I think that’s like a real a pretty clear example of how it’s worked out to someone’s benefit. And I doubt she has I think she has no doubt or regrets about making that switch. And I think she’s even talked about it, how much her growth accelerated once she went over to Substack.

But one of the reasons for that is there is a very active writing and publishing community there. There are other people who have influential substacks on writing and publishing, that talk about Leigh, whatever Leigh is writing, and they’ll share her latest issue, etcetera, etcetera. And so there’s just this great amplifying effect that takes place. It also helps that she’s really in the community.

Substacks on all Topics

Jane Friedman [00:14:54]:
There are people like who already know her name. So Yeah. So that’s an example of it working out well. And I think even though I used a writing and publishing industry example, it the same applies regardless. You know, it could be mental health. It could be inspirational, devotional sorts of material. It could be politics or Bitcoin or AI. You’ll see these little communities that have grown and all of the people who do the influential Substacks, they all know each other and and and cross promote and comment.

Cautioning Substack for Writers

Jane Friedman [00:15:32]:
Now where I think it gets into trickier territory where it’s like, I don’t know if you would wanna put all your eggs in that Substack basket is if you have a fairly well established website, especially if you’ve got an active blog and you, let’s say, are trying to rank in Google search or organic search, you’re already ranking in Google search, and and you’re thinking about, well, maybe I’ll stop posting at my own website and instead post it on Substack, or I’ll try to do both.

Like, there are people who wanna, you know, have their cake and eat it too. And I think that’s, to me, usually the worst of both worlds because you’re splitting your traffic. You’re making you’re creating some confusion in my estimation about where you actually live and where you want people to go.

So I would say either you’re gonna build and invest in your foundation at your website, whatever that might be—usually it’s your author website. Or you’re gonna decide, “I’m gonna go the Substack path.”

Now there are some exceptions to this where maybe you have a very distinct project.

Jane Friedman [00:16:41]:
That maybe it’s clearly, you know, something that could stand alone and it’s okay maybe to silo it over in Substack and you can always cross reference the other stuff that you do at your main website. I don’t have a problem with that. But when people are, you know, double or double posting or doing an excerpt here, and I think that’s not ideal at all.

Ann Kroeker [00:17:02]:
So those who have shut down their websites and put every like you said, all the eggs in one basket, they moved over. They just shut down their website. I don’t know about podcasting, but I have I have friends who have done that. They’ve shut down everything, gone over to Substack. It’s all there. You would say, “Good luck with that”? Or what would you say to them?

Using Substack for its Marketing Power

Jane Friedman [00:17:20]:
Well, it depends on how strong that site was. Like, if it was always kind of a if it if you never got more than a 100 visits in a month, you’re probably gonna be very happy moving over to Substack. But for someone like me, you know, I get, you know, probably 6 figures a month in traffic and I’m, I’m not going to be doing anything that would harm that or devalue it or send some of its traffic over to Substack.

So instead, I use Substack for its marketing power. I use the Notes tool, which is the social media layer. I comment on other people’s substacks just as I would comment on other people’s blogs knowing that people will find me there.

Jane Friedman [00:18:04]:
And I do have, you know, kind of this I do have a Substack newsletter, but it is not something that I am active with. So, like, maybe every quarter I will post something and it’s of a more personal nature. It’s kind of it’s just discussing my career and like some of the qualms I have about my career. And it has nothing to do with what I normally post at my main website. And so if people discover that fine, they’re getting something that’s very real for me. That’s still kind of aligns with my brand. And if they’re really curious, they’re gonna end up at my website.

Ann Kroeker [00:18:36]:
Nice. Nice. I like that idea. That was exactly what I thought I needed something different enough that I didn’t feel like I had to cross well, the cross referencing is smart, but I didn’t have to keep putting the same content in more places. Right. Yeah. Okay. So you would say from an SEO perspective, meaning search engine results, that it would be unwise to paste the same content over in your Substack if it’s living at your website.

The Danger of Splitting Your SEO Traffic & Confusing Readers

Jane Friedman [00:19:00]:
I think it’s unwise. You know? I mean, you would have to see what would happen to kinda test the theory, but usually, Substack, I would has a lot of authority in Google’s eyes. A domain authority. And so when people go searching for you or the key topics you write about. If they’re supposed to land at something you’ve written because they’re searching for something whether that’s your name your book whatever. It becomes more likely that Substack or something you’ve put on Substack will come up first because it has so much authority rather than your own website. And that just hurts my business heart.

Ann Kroeker [00:19:39]:
Is that fairly new that they that they have succeeded at kind of breaking the SEO codes? It seems like in the beginning when it was siloed off, whatever you put up on your own Substack, it wasn’t turning up. So is that fairly new?

Jane Friedman [00:19:52]:
I mean, I can turn up Substack posts myself with depending on the search. So it’s just there are lots of variables here, but I would I definitely think it’s something just as to satisfy your own curiosity even if you’re not trying to drive traffic to your own author website. If you have a Substack, do a search for your name and titles or some other things and see what comes up.

So in any event, I think the more harm just comes in splitting your traffic. And I think it creates confusion for people. If they see the same stuff in both places, they don’t know quite exactly what what are you doing in both places. So it’s I may be making too much of of this, but I I see people waffle, you know, and they they seem to lack the conviction of what they’re doing. And so they end up in this no man’s land.

Could Substack’s Model Shift and Create a Different Experience?

Jane Friedman [00:20:43]:
And I would just say if you’re gonna use Substack for something, use it, but don’t devalue what you’re attempting to accomplish on your own website. And I think your own website shouldn’t be ignored in favor of feeding the Substack machine with everything at once, to become bigger and stronger.

Because, you know, I think what I’m worried about for folks is that in some years time, I don’t know if it’ll be suit very in the near future or the far future. But Substack’s profit motive, I think eventually wins out and they will have to make some changes that you might not like. So I don’t know what those changes will be. But it could involve charging for the service. It might mean inserting advertising. It might mean, not giving you the email addresses of your subscribers which are currently if you want to leave Substack you can take your subscribers with you based on email address and they will go.

Jane Friedman [00:21:42]:
But if people haven’t subscribed, of course, you can’t take them with you. And so if they change anything about that, then you’ve you have just lost a lot of time that you could have spent building on grounds you own outright. So I’m just always concerned about writers not being on, you know, I guess the rent the rented or the leased property where the terms can change.

Ann Kroeker [00:22:08]:
I agree. I encourage every writer to the extent they have the means to do so, to have a self-hosted website if they possibly can for that reason. You control it to some extent. I mean, I’ve had some technical glitches, but I’ve been able to resolve those, and it’s all under my under my roof, so to speak. But I do love what you said about using the functionality of Substack. So you you have a presence there. You’re using it by commenting and using the Notes feature. I think that’s a really smart use.

Ann Kroeker [00:22:37]:
I also you mentioned one thing that I thought I better tell anybody who has their Substack is maybe periodically on a regular basis, download those or upload the CSV, get the CSV files of all those email addresses in case that does happen, what you just said, where they say, you know what? We’re not gonna be able to let you have those anymore. That terrible.

Jane Friedman [00:22:56]:
Happen. I mean, it would be a PR nightmare for them. So I don’t expect that to happen anytime soon, but you just never know, like, these things get sold, they change hands, the new owners have different ideas. So it’s, I think, very hard to predict.

Substack’s January 2024 Controversy

Ann Kroeker [00:23:11]:
Yeah. And speaking of PR nightmares, they did go through something more in January where there were was a little bit of a dust up, if not even a kerfuffle or something even worse. What how do you feel like we can talk about that? Yeah. And Yeah. Okay. So why don’t you describe what happened and what the fallout was and where they’re at now?

Jane Friedman [00:23:29]:
So I wanna say part of this was sparked maybe by a piece in The Atlantic or in a major media outlet. Someone was saying, hey hey, everyone. Did you know that there are neo Nazis who have Substacks and, you know, they’re they’re potentially earning money? Substack is profiting off of Neo Nazi newsletters. That was that was kind of like the headline message attached to that.

Now later on, many months down the line or maybe even more immediately, I don’t know, there were people who pushed back against that and said, okay, are they really earning money? Like, are these really successful Substacks? I’ve never seen these Substack. And then there were other people who were saying it’s unfair to call them Neo Nazis. Okay. But as soon as I think the the the bigger point was Substack likes to portray itself as a tech platform that does not make editorial decisions.

Jane Friedman [00:24:27]:
And more or less, everyone is welcome as long as you’re not doing something that’s blatantly illegal. They do have some policies against certain types of content. I don’t remember what the list is. And people were really pushing them to consider these specific, you know, Neo Nazi Substacks or whatever it was that was problematic about them, really pressuring Substack to put them under the policy that means they have to be kicked off.

Well, long story short, Substack, I think they may have purged a handful of accounts, but they didn’t like, they didn’t do what was publicly demanded of them. And there was an exodus of a number of sub stacks, some influential, some not influential. I think the biggest person I saw depart was Casey Newton of Platformer. So he left Substack and set up on, I believe, Ghost, which is truly a tech platform.

Each Person’s Ethical Dilemma & Choice

Jane Friedman [00:25:30]:
It would be comparable to like a WordPress. So just as a WordPress or a Ghost isn’t going to make editorial decisions about who uses their technology. Substack was trying to make the same argument, but really unsuccessfully I might add. Because they have all of these marketing tools and other and other factors where they stand to benefit and earn money by putting their finger on you know the scale of who gets seen and and if if if the paid newsletters get more seen and get more subscribers, then they they get a cut of that.

So eventually, the controversy died down. I’m not gonna say it’s gone, but I think everyone who was gonna leave has probably left. Substack didn’t really change their policy meaningfully as far as I can tell. And everyone else just kinda shrugged their shoulders and and carried on.

Jane Friedman [00:26:28]:
I don’t really I personally, like, I didn’t leave Substack. I’m still using it. I don’t have a problem with their policies as they are written. But I do think it’s just disingenuous for them to say we’re a tech company and such decision decisions do not concern us. I thought that was really, really poor position to take.

Ann Kroeker [00:26:52]:
So it leaves people with this ethical decision they have to decide for themselves, or they’re on Substack. Do I continue when what I’ve been told is that they’re potentially profiting from Right. The the both the people who have those websites or those Substacks, excuse me, they are profiting and, you know, in association with that, then Substack itself and those owners are profiting as well. So Right. Yes. And then when you land on it and you say, like, I’m okay with that, you stay or you look elsewhere to something that you feel like does uphold your your ethical stance.

Jane Friedman [00:27:27]:
Right.

Ann Kroeker [00:27:27]:
That’s hard to do because what you’re dealing with our companies, like, WordPress probably has really offensive people building their websites there. We don’t even know it. And so does that mean I’d stop my WordPress? This it’s a really tricky question. You could really Right. Go you know, if you go to the extreme, like, oh, do do we can we be anywhere? Can we be on any social media platform? Can we be…

Jane Friedman [00:27:47]:
Exactly. I would say that if you have that problem with Substack, if if you’re not gonna have a double standard, you need to ask yourself, am I gonna apply those same standards to x, to Instagram, to TikTok, to every service I use? And I think, you know, I may I know what my decision is. I’m going to use the tools that help me and unless sometimes there is a line that’s crossed and I can no longer be a part of that. I made that decision with that. So there was a point where I was like I’m out. I can’t do it anymore. So everyone’s decisions are gonna be, I think, quite personal. And so I never I do not judge.

Jane Friedman [00:28:23]:
We all have to decide where the line is drawn.

Ann Kroeker [00:28:25]:
I agree. I agree. And but I think it it actually the whole conversation that was happening around that. And in my community, I have a writing community as well that focuses focuses on platforms. So that’s why this is a big topic in our space. And we were all wrestling with it too, and I think it’s good to wrestle with it. Yeah. I think it’s good to ask those questions.

Ann Kroeker [00:28:42]:
It is. And rather than I tend to dive in and then the figure figure things out. I don’t have regrets of doing that, but I do enjoy exploring things. And maybe I need to grab my domain name long enough to make sure I get my name, and then and then do a little bit more deep dive before I get all in with anything. So it it’s it’s worth doing your research, I guess. Do your due diligence and then make your decision, and and and you can always change. You can always decide otherwise. Although moving every which way is gonna be time consuming every time you switch to from a major platform to another, especially if you’ve gone all in with Substack versus what you’re doing where you’re just in there using it like social media.

Ann Kroeker [00:29:21]:
Do you feel like that decision I I don’t wanna spend a huge amount of time here, but do you feel like that decision that they made and the pressure they were getting further confirms that maybe at the heart of Substack, they are a social media platform because they could monitor it, or do you feel like that’s true of any anything even subs even WordPress?

Substack Investing in People on the Platform

Jane Friedman [00:29:39]:
I think WordPress and Ghost are are different from Substack. I don’t feel like Substack is in their category even though they say that they are. Substack makes has made I don’t know if they’re actively making, but they’ve they’ve made investments in specific people who are on that platform. You know, they’ve had grants or they’ve provided services. I think they recently tried to bring some TikTok folks on to get them to use and I there might have been incentives there. So I mean, they’re definitely they’ve got their hand in the mix, the editorial mix. And if certainly they also have, like, editorial their own editorial newsletters where they’re highlighting very specific people on the platform. So they it’s and and they themselves come out with their, you know, with their own opinions and things.

Jane Friedman [00:30:33]:
So they’re very active in the community themselves, I think, for the most part. So if you go to Ghost or or WordPress, you just don’t see that. You know? That’s it’s just like you don’t see it with, like, your hosting company or, you know, they it usually, they’re not engaging with their users in that way.

Ann Kroeker [00:30:55]:
So yeah. Yeah. So that and that’s where I think it I I appreciate all the early attempt to describe and define it because is it at its heart like a website hosting company, or is it more, at its heart, an email service provider? Or or is it more, at its heart, a social media, system and so on? It’s like, it is really hard to land on what it’s most like. Do you feel like there’s one thing it’s more most like this?

Is Substack a “Platisher”?

Jane Friedman [00:31:20]:
You know, there was this horrible term that was coined maybe 10 years ago called a platisher.

Ann Kroeker [00:31:27]:
Oh, I’ve never heard that.

Jane Friedman [00:31:29]:
So it’s a mash up of the word platform and publisher. It’s kind of like that. So it’s, you know, it’s a tech platform, but it is also in some ways a publisher deciding where it’s going to put some more investment or who it’s trying to attract and supporting certain people. In some ways, it’s a little bit like Medium used to be where anyone could go and contribute to Medium. And I think that’s still the case. But they were they were investing in certain publications there and making payouts. And so obviously funding what they thought would help the whole environment succeed. So it’s it’s not like Substack is investing in just the technology under it.

Jane Friedman [00:32:12]:
They are investing in people. So I think that’s the difference.

Ann Kroeker [00:32:17]:
That is very different. Yes. So, do you do you have any subtext that you feel like are your favorites that you’d like to share? That’d be kind of fun.

Jane’s Favorite Substack Newsletters

Jane Friedman [00:32:26]:
Oh, there’s so many. Now I subscribe to a lot of, writing and publishing industry subtext because that’s my job. So in that area, you know, Courtney Maums’ “Before and After the Book Deal” is a great example of a paid substack that I think is worth the money to many, many writers. A there’s a health substack I subscribed to called “The Vajenda” by a book author, Dr. Jen Gunter, who is always trying to battle misinformation about women’s health in particular online. That’s a neverending job. I subscribe to a range of AI newsletters, some against and some for because I like to get the whole the the big picture of that. For those who are interested in the copyright implications, there’s a good one called “AI and Copyright” by Peter Schoppert.

Jane Friedman [00:33:17]:
He’s always quite, smart on those issues. Since I’m on the nonfiction journalistic side of the writing and publishing, like, in my personal interests, I subscribe to a newsletter by Helen Lewis. She is British, but she writes for The Atlantic. It’s called “The Bluestocking.” And it’s a really great example of a behind the scenes newsletter for anyone who’s actively writing and publishing elsewhere. I think here’s an example of how to use Substack to supplement what you’re doing in kind of your mainstream, whatever it is, whether it’s your own blog or pieces that you’re placing out in the world. You know, the funny thing is 2 of my favorite newsletters left Substack. One of them is Tangle.

Jane Friedman [00:34:05]:
This is a politics newsletter that looks at the 360 degree view of hot button issues. They started on Substack, but they moved over to Ghost. So you can find them at retangle.com. I actually did an interview with the founder, Isaac Saul, because I just think it’s super fascinating how they’ve managed to build a really robust newsletter, that gets a lot of donations. Most of the content is free. And so you can get most of what you want, I think, out of their reporting without paying a dime, yet they grow they’re they’ve been growing for years. And then another one would be Benedict Evans for his tech analysis. And he, he uses actually one of the email traditional emails, newsletter providers.

Jane Friedman [00:34:50]:
I think it might be Mailchimp. And he obviously has that hooked up to a subscription management service or a payment service. I think he uses one of the WordPress plugins that might be Memberful, for example. So for those who are trying to build their own solution, they usually choose a WordPress plugin or a subscription, facilitator like Memberful, and then they hook that up to their email newsletter service provider, in his case, Mailchimp.

Ann Kroeker [00:35:18]:
That is so complicated. Like you said, when you set it all up yourself on the back end for The Hot Sheet, and then, you’re like, where were where were you when I needed you? So I’m stuck that like, that getting the plugins and all of that to play nice together sounds like a lot. But thank you for those recommendations. I was thinking of a couple of paid the the I pay very little, and I’d like to talk about that too. Just the cost. Like, the over like, if everybody charges even just $5 or $8 level, eventually, people max out on what they can afford for all the people they might wanna learn from. So Yes. We can talk about that in just a second. But given that, the 2 paid that I experimented with was George Saunders. He had one where he was teaching writing technique, and I wanted to see what he was doing.

Budgeting for Paid Newsletters

Ann Kroeker [00:35:59]:
And he built a whole little, like, class you could sign up for, and he would he would teach. He would look at mentor texts and then pick them apart and do some close readings and discussions, and people were very active in the comments. That was an interesting investment for about the the year that I was in there. And then writing in the dark, Jeanette Ouellette, she has a nice one too. I like hers, and she’s very instructive and models it well with grace and, very encouraging in the way that she goes about her Substack. So but they were paid, and they’re they’re I probably the only 2 paid ones I ever paid for because so many others were giving away enough for free that it was motivating to explore them. And I think you get into that a lot where in in the article you wrote an article in March I’ll link to that that was sort of like it’s something like it’s it’s terrible and wonderful or something like that as the title. I’ll link to it.

Ann Kroeker [00:36:48]:
But, you point out that, really, we can use whatever email service provider we want to use to to deliver free newsletters because most of us are not you are, but, like, I’m not famous famous enough or weighty enough to be somebody that probably people would wanna be paying enough for to make it worth it. I would rather have more subscribers to be able to pour into those people and tell them about something that’s coming up. And if I have more people on that list who can learn about the thing that’s coming up, then I might be able to let them know about a paid thing and make some money that way versus trying to make money from the product itself.

Jane Friedman [00:37:25]:
Right.

Ann Kroeker [00:37:26]:
And so that’s challenged because then those who want to try to do that, and they start charging means Mhmm. Very often, I’m just like, yeah. I don’t know you enough. I don’t think I’m gonna do that because eventually you hit your budget. Do you mind to talk about that a little bit?

Jane Friedman [00:37:41]:
Yeah. So I subscribe to more than a 100 substacks, and I only have pulled out money for 4 of them. So that is a very and I’m someone who loves newsletters, but there’s a limit. There is a limit. And I’m not alone in this. You have to be so motivated to get that content to pay. So The Vajenda, about women’s health, that’s one that I do pay for because I feel like this is a doctor who is actually keeping up with the latest research, in women’s health. And I don’t think I’m gonna get that really anywhere else, not even from my own doctor.

The Paradox of Making More from Free Newsletters

Jane Friedman [00:38:25]:
And I and she just has this sort of series information too that was behind a paywall that immediately when you subscribe you get that big hit of, okay, here’s all the information I really need to access before I even get, you know, the future newsletters. So there has to be that that’s why I think so many people fail at getting people to pay is that they don’t have that must have content. The sort of content, you know, that you would need if you were trying to get an advance from a book publisher, you know, that level of of benefit.

So something I often tell people rather than if like first of all like please go read what I wrote about the value of free newsletters in that post the terrible and wonderful post because I think people get so fixated on charging they forget how much money you stand to earn over a career just by having a free email newsletter list. I mean that is the easiest way to make money is by not charging for it. Paradoxically.

Ann Kroeker [00:39:32]:
Yes counterintuitive but so true.

Patronage Model Versus Subscriber Model

Jane Friedman [00:39:35]:
So once you start charging I would say most writers should really be looking at more of a patronage model rather than a subscriber model. And the difference is with the subscriber model you are telling people this is a transaction I am going to deliver x amount of value for x amount of dollars on a consistent basis. And we agree that if my value is not there you are going to leave. It’s the same, you know, transaction we conduct when we subscribe to a magazine, like a print magazine or, or Netflix or any sort of entertainment, or information that we want in our lives on a regular basis. Most writers are not going to be able to meet the transactional value, or it’s going to be a very tiny percentage of those you reach.

The patronage model is telling people, “Look, I think you might want to support my work. Can you support my work? Through this tip or through this donation, this one time, can you be a founding member and then you will get everything for free in perpetuity?” Some people do that, which I think is a great idea.

Jane Friedman [00:40:41]:
And so I think one of the problems is just the recurring nature of the subscription fee. It produces a lot of churn and you have to find a way to replace those people. And that you know that’s a business that’s been around for a 100 years. There are principles drive it. And I don’t know that writers really want to be distracted by learning what goes into running a successful subscription business.

Whereas I think patronage is a more accessible way to think about it. Come and support my work because it helps me do x y z. So it would be the same sort of messaging that you would use like in a Kickstarter or crowdfunding campaign or if you were running a Patreon.

Jane Friedman [00:41:19]:
So that’s something to consider. An example that I’ve sometimes used of this model is John Warner. He’s an author I worked with for many years. He now has a Substack newsletter that’s totally free. If you end up paying, you don’t really get anything more than what he gives everyone for free, except he’ll do a recommended reading list for you based on, like, stuff you like or don’t like. That’s it.

Jane’s “Decision Tree” to Decide if Substack is Right for You

Ann Kroeker [00:41:44]:
Nice. Thank you for that. And I’ll link to that. I’ll find him, and I’ll link to it because I think it’s nice to see examples of what you’re talking about. And in in in that vein, I don’t wanna put you on the spot, but can you come up with a decision tree of sorts? Like, if somebody is trying to make a decision, I would say personally, go get your name. Like I said earlier, I feel so passionate about that just because I didn’t get my name on Pinterest. And I’m kinda sore about it. That other Ann Kroeker out there.

Ann Kroeker [00:42:09]:
Nothing personal, but I really wish I could have that on Pinterest. Anyway, I just I just feel like if go ahead and get it, reserve it, and sit on it, and then decide if you wanna do anything with it later. Aside from that, how would anybody decide? Like, yes. It’s a good idea for me. I think you’ve touched on it, but I’m wondering if there’s a clear path for people.

Ask Yourself These Questions

Jane Friedman [00:42:27]:
Yes. I would say if the idea of if you don’t currently blog and or have an email newsletter, and the idea is just intrinsically exciting to you. Like you have some enthusiasm, and you’re not sitting here wondering, what would I write about? I don’t know. Like if you’re already like, you’re just kind of shrugging at what in the world you would do with Substack, I would say, why don’t you save it for some other time when you have a fire in you and you know exactly what you’re gonna write about. Because you need that fire to to sustain the effort through the amount of time it will take for anyone to discover that you’re doing it in the first place. So so that’s that’s kind of the first criteria.

So are you in intrinsically interest in this, and you’re not already doing it and you’re like, Substack inspires me and I’m reading some substacks that make me feel like I have something to contribute to the conversation or to the community. And then I would say if you’re already reading a lot of substacks, you’re just gonna add fuel to the fire of whatever you’re doing because you’re already gonna be having those conversations. You’re already gonna know the names and the players.

Jane Friedman [00:43:39]:
And so you’re gonna get up and running much more quickly as opposed to you have never entered that universe and you don’t know who to read first. And there’s going to be a lot of kind of fumbling around until you figure out who people are already paying attention to in your niche.

And then if you do need that light website, but you don’t want to, like, start your own WordPress or Squarespace or whatever, and you’re interested in pairing that with a little bit of light social media, let’s say you hate a lot of the existing social media options. There could be many reasons for that. You’re not particularly active anywhere. You could use Substack to kind of give you a light, in my opinion, friendly accessible way to have the start of your online presence. So it could be this minimalist site. Maybe you send a newsletter, maybe you don’t, but then you’re using notes to engage and be visible to to your community.

Jane Friedman [00:44:34]:
So those are all of the indicators that I think favor it. I think it becomes less favorable or you start saying maybe not if you’ve already really invested in certain assets that you’re trying to grow and associate with your name over time. So for example, in let me use a health example again. So another author I follow in the health world is Peter Attia. He’s a podcaster. He has a pretty significant website with all of his content. You’re not going to find him within 5,000 miles of sub stack.

Jane Friedman [00:45:04]:
He doesn’t need it. He’s driving everyone to be a member at his website. Going to Substack would be like probably degrading given the experience that he has created. So the more you move in that direction the more you’re in my position where I’ve had an established site now for 15 years. Substack is kind of like a toy you get to play with and you get to engage on social media and you have a little bit of fun. And I really do enjoy what I do there but it is not going to replace the serious business things.

Ann Kroeker [00:45:38]:
Those are good distinctions. I love that. And like you said, when you start with the person who doesn’t have so much of an online presence and you get your name, you reserve your name, then that playing around with it by subscribing to people, maybe some of the ones that you have recommended here. We could look at like you said, you could look at people you like and see what they’re subscribed to because of that recommendation feature. Right. Then you can start to just understand it, and I think that’s so helpful. And then decide, like, is this a good fit? Do I like the the way things are laid out here? Does it make sense, for people to navigate that and to navigate me and my world that I might build there too? And that’s a great way to start with that. Yeah.

Ann Kroeker [00:46:14]:
If you have your whole world, like, I do too. I’m like you. I have all this content over the years, right? That I I I love that idea. It’s my little play space. It’s like a playground for me.

Substack’s Weak on E-Commerce Options

Jane Friedman [00:46:24]:
I should also mention I don’t know how many how many listeners this would apply to but there are some people who are very e commerce oriented with their email. I’m not saying that all they do is sell but there’s a really big component to marketing and promoting X. It could be like let’s say you’re a self-published author who has new releases frequently. And so you need to tell your invested readers about them or you have classes to sell like I do or you have merchandise or there’s just a lot of offerings. Maybe you have a Shopify store or some other WooCommerce on your website. And so there’s always like something new coming around the bend that you have to market and promote. I think Substack is terrible for that. It is not for selling products merchandise.

Jane Friedman [00:47:10]:
Like if you want to sell a newsletter. Yes. But if you want to do something that I would consider more pure sales and promotion, you really need an email newsletter service like Mailchimp for that.

Ann Kroeker [00:47:21]:
I use ConvertKit. I do too. And, there are many others as well, but I I agree. I think that’s something you need to keep in mind if you’re gonna try to sell things. Because you get again, you get into that trick of, I have to bring these subscribers over here, perhaps, if they have but have they opted in for marketing?

Jane Friedman [00:47:38]:
Exactly. Exactly.

Ann Kroeker [00:47:40]:
Well, is there anything about Substack that we haven’t touched on that’s on your mind? Because this is you you said, I wanna talk about Substack. Maybe I didn’t ask the right questions. Is there anything lingering you wanna touch on?

Learn about the Substack App (and how it could frustrate the email list-building function)

Jane Friedman [00:47:51]:
I think the only aspect of Substack we didn’t discuss is the fact that it’s also an app. So there are people who only read content in the app and they don’t receive emails. In fact, this is so weird. There’s a really significant substack personality, Elle Griffin, who she loves it. She’s an evangelist for the platform. And as soon as the app came out, she was like, I’m unsubscribing to every Substack. I’m only going to read it in the app. And I thought, you do realize that by promoting this, you are essentially saying, if I leave Substack, I will have no more access to my subscribers.

Jane Friedman [00:48:27]:
Like this is to me, as a business person, I’m like, this is terrible. This is a terrible thing. So that’s just another, like I guess a cautionary note that I don’t know how much Substack is pushing the app. I don’t know what percentage of readers only read through the app without having the email come through. But to me that’s again that’s getting into the social media boat of someone else someone else’s algorithm is gonna determine whether or not they see my writing today.

Ann Kroeker [00:48:56]:
Right. Yes. I would not have thought of that except that I am using the app. My husband uses the app and and and subscribes to many things and uses the little reader. Even if they don’t record it, he likes it when it reads to him so he can go about his day. And I don’t know how much he even checks his inbox, but, yes, to to encourage people not to use their inbox is sort of negating that one huge advantage. Right. That’s a great point.

Ann Kroeker [00:49:20]:
Thanks for bringing that up. Well, this has been a great conversation, Jane, and I know people are gonna want if they don’t know you yet, which I can’t imagine anybody in the writing world who does not know you yet. So let me just say to you, if you’re watching, listening, tuning in for whatever reason, please go to janefriedman.com and just start diving into the archives and using that as an educational tool and learn about everything about the writing and publishing world because she is the expert. She’s the one everybody brings in as a keynote because she knows everything. You know, all the great and powerful Jane Friedman. But, is there anything you would like to send people to in in addition to Jane Friedman dot com so that they can get to know you better or take advantage of something that you’re offering?

Jane Friedman [00:49:59]:
Well, at JaneFriedman.com, like the good newsletter writer that I am, you’ll find mentions of both of my newsletters. The free one it’s called Electric Speed. It comes out every 2 weeks. And it’s just fun digital tools and recommendations for folks. Even if you don’t write I think it’s pretty fun. And then there’s another newsletter. That’s my paid newsletter. It’s called The Hot Sheet.

Jane Friedman [00:50:22]:
And it’s it’s really for professional authors or other publishing industry professionals who want to stay up to date on trends and news in book publishing. So it’s that’s a year’s subscription. I won’t allow anyone to do just a month. That’s that’s another maybe one day we can do how to manage a subscription business conversation. I think one of the the the Substack, you know, environment allows people to charge monthly or annual. And I think that is whew, that’s another mess.

Ann Kroeker [00:50:52]:
Yes. Yes. I agree with that too, but we’ll call, we’ll call it quits right now on discussing these things, because this has been an extreme, extremely useful discussion for people to make some educated decisions about what they wanna do. I subscribe to both of your newsletters. I do find them incredibly valuable. You do practice what you preach. You deliver value in each case. So thank you for all the ways you pour into writers all over the place, all the time, in just about every medium possible.

Ann Kroeker [00:51:18]:
Appreciate it.

Jane Friedman [00:51:18]:
Thank you, Ann.

Ann Kroeker [00:51:19]:
This episode is brought to you by YPM. Are you looking to reach more readers in a community of writers? Take a look at YPM, your platform matters. It’s my membership community where we discuss topics like this very thing, like whether or not or how to use Substack. I offer group coaching calls and platform specific trainings every month. It’s one of the most affordable ways to work with me. Check it out at annkroeker.com/ypm. That’s annkroeker.com/ypm. And I’m Ann Kroeker, cheering you on as a writing coach in your ear.

Ann Kroeker [00:51:50]:
Everywhere we may meet at my website, on the show, even in person. I’m always looking for ideas to share with you that will help you achieve your goals and have fun by being more curious, creative, and productive. Thank you for being here.

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