Intimate Partner Violence with Shannon The Tarot Diagnosis

What Lies Buried: Uncovering Abuse with Karly Latham

Welcome to What Lies Buried, a podcast dedicated to shedding light on the often overlooked and misunderstood topic of emotional abuse. Through intimate and heartfelt interviews, we provide a platform for survivors to share their personal stories, offering insight into their pain, strength, and healing.

This week, I am joined by Shannon from The Tarot Diagnosis, a Johns Hopkins-trained psychotherapist, to discuss the ins and outs of emotional abuse, coercive control, and healing advice.

https://www.instagram.com/thetarotdiagnosis/

https://www.thetarotdiagnosis.com/symposium-sign-up

If you or someone you know is experiencing abuse, please seek help:

https://www.thehotline.org/

Please subscribe to get a new episode every Thursday and uncover the stories that need to be told.

If you would like to be involved with the show as a guest, or just want to submit your story for future listener minisodes please write in to [e-mail]

For in depth articles on emotional abuse and mental health: https://medium.com/@karly-latham

Episode transcript:

Hi.

Hello. Welcome to What Lies Buried, where we dive into the real and raw stories of those who have experienced emotional abuse. I'm your host, Karly Latham. Each week, we'll hear stories of real abuse told by real survivors. This show is a safe space for abuse survivors to share their stories. My guests will always be able to choose to remain anonymous.

There will be no names or locations, but a chance to have your voice heard because buried beneath all the lies is the truth waiting to be uncovered. Please note before beginning that I am not a professional. I do not have a fancy degree to back me up, just a series of unfortunate experiences. [00:01:00] This podcast is intended for mature audiences only.

We will be discussing themes of abuse, which may be triggering for some listeners. Please proceed with caution.

karly-latham: Hi. Hello Karly here. This is my first official episode of what lies buried and in my introduction I have promised that I would be interviewing guests and nominees anonymously to be able to share their stories and experiences with abuse.

But this is an important distinction for me to make each and every time I am not a mental health professional. I'm just interested. So before I bring on any guests to interview, I wanted to bring on a professional. And the first guest that I've chosen is a friend of mine.

We've known each other for a pretty long time now. And she is one of the people [00:02:00] that I turned to when I realized I needed professional help. Welcome Shannon from the Tarot Diagnosis.

shannon--she-her-: Thank you. I, you know, and I can't believe it's been so long that we've

Now. And yeah, I, I just, again, like, I I'm glad that you felt safe enough to reach out to me and talk to me and I feel honored to be on, know, this podcast or your

karly-latham: Yes.

shannon--she-her-: hang out and lend any sort of expertise or insight that I can provide on, on this

karly-latham: Thank you so much for being here. I messaged you, I knew that both as my friend and as a professional, I knew that you could give me knowledge that I needed to point me in the right direction.

I think I messaged you like from my bathtub in Florida, and I was like, I'm pretty sure. I don't remember what I said, but I can remember feeling So split and recognizing that [00:03:00] my trauma had become severe enough that it was verging on the line of PTSD. And I asked for resources which is kind of what I'm hoping that this space can be is just a spot for people to say, I am unwell.

shannon--she-her-: it's so, it's much needed. I think this topic in particular, you know, emotional abuse is something that, a lot of folks are afraid to talk about and there's so much unknown about it too that it's like, is that really what's happening? So having a platform like Your offering, folks, I think is going to be able to shed some light on aspects of this experience and make people feel less alone.

karly-latham: Yeah.

shannon--she-her-: I

karly-latham: It is a very isolating journey, both in being emotionally abused and also the discovery process that comes with it, because I was diagnosed with PTSD and we're talking,, Several [00:04:00] months, possibly years later at this point before I stopped and was like, holy shit, that was, that was abuse.

That wasn't just like a series of bad events. But for me looking online, what I experienced didn't match up with the typical information that I was reading about online and if people were Between that and the typical media portrayal which is like for me if I think of emotional abuse It's usually like a drunk man and a wife beater like tossing his beers against the wall with like a cowering wife and a moo moo You know, it's like a very specific set of circumstances and I just feel like There needs to be a space for more people to see what abuse is so I was wondering if you could give us a brief explanation on what emotional abuse is.

shannon--she-her-: Yeah, so I mean, it's such a [00:05:00] complex, layered Complicated experience, but in short, emotional abuse is essentially a pattern of behavior meant to control someone else. And this pattern of behavior can run the gamut from, you know, veiled insults to gaslighting, shaming. Anything, and things that are not even overtly said or experienced, but maybe things that happen over time that make you believe something about yourself that maybe is not accurate or true. It could be completely non verbal. Maybe you're getting the silent treatment for hours or days. And eventually it starts to grate on your overall well being to the point where you could develop PTSD like you've experienced. It really takes a toll on your self worth the way you view yourself. Of course, anxiety and [00:06:00] depression are inevitable. There are even studies now that show chronic illnesses, like especially pain related chronic illnesses like fibromyalgia IBS. You know, even autoimmune stuff, and I'm not a medical doctor, so I can't speak too much of that. I'm just going off of the research that I know as a clinician are all, or can be attributed, not that they're, that's where they all come from, but can be attributed to emotional abuse. So really it's about anything that happens in a relationship, you know, a pattern, ongoing behavior. that eventually makes you feel like a shell of who you are. You lose your identity, you lose your sense of self, you're afraid to respond, you feel like you're walking on eggshells a lot of the time. Yeah, you just have like an overall sense of, you know, maybe I'm not that great of a person.

This

better.

karly-latham: Shell, being the shell of your former self. And previously I've described myself before I found Tarot as being like a living zombie. Like I didn't have a personality. I didn't [00:07:00] have, I, I existed. To be a wife and mother and that was it there wasn't anything left of me

shannon--she-her-: Yeah.

karly-latham: I credit tarot for saving Saving my life sounds dramatic but like I needed that swift kick up the ass that the cards delivered to be like You need to figure out who you are as a person and it was only then that I started to look around and be like, huh?

Yeah

shannon--she-her-: Well, it's so fascinating that you even said that about Tarot, because we know that the cards are essentially a mirror, and when you're in an emotionally abusive relationship, especially when on the outside, It looks, you know, perfect or it looks normal or, you know, you're not a lot of times. So the beginning of my career, the foundation of my career, I was built on working with folks who were in experienced intimate partner violence.

So before I even went to undergrad, I even went to grad school as a certified domestic violence counselor. [00:08:00] that was like the foundation of, of where my career was built on. And a lot of times, like people would say, Oh, I didn't realize that it was abuse because I wasn't being harmed or I wasn't being screamed at. You know, so it's important to even be able to realize, okay, it's all, it's way more than just what we, like you said earlier, what we see in the media. And it's often the things that, you know, we don't attribute to the media. You know, intimate partner violence that really make us unable to connect authentically with ourselves because that's what really kind of has the intense psychological effect that

karly-latham: yeah, the, the way that abuse is usually depicted is very, it's not, it's not black and white, but you really have to dig deep before you're able to get to the information that shows what real people's experiences with abuse is, like, [00:09:00] I knew the term gaslighting, and I knew the term manipulating, but I didn't understand how it all fit together until I was like well deep into the, you know, and I would even, I would explain what was happening in my life and say, you know, This is what is being told to me.

This is what is actually happening. I knew the term gaslighting and I still didn't understand that what I was experiencing was gaslighting. I feel, and especially in terms of emotional abuse. The amount of damage that things like that can do while the victims or the survivors are Unaware because we're not taught to look for it and the sad and troubling thing is that A lot of this abuse will come from nice guys, these people who, like, they have a [00:10:00] great public opinion, people can't imagine that they could be so hurtful behind closed doors.

You expect, abusive words to still come with harsh language and name calling and things like that. But the fact of the matter is, abuse is so multilayered.

It's not just like screaming in your face, punching walls, you know? That, that happens and that's horrible that that happens, but there's also more to that. You can not be screamed at and still be abused.

shannon--she-her-: I'm so glad you're talking about. this particular aspect of emotional abuse, because I feel like personally now my practice as a psychotherapist, that's what I see the most of. And that's what I'm constantly telling people, Hey, we need to take a look at this because this is not healthy. This is not safe behavior. Because it's, you know, something that I've actually seen within the last couple of months [00:11:00] are one, the silent treatment's a big one where maybe you have an argument or a disagreement and your partner. Doesn't talk to you for hours and you start to think oh, well, they just need time to process Well, there's a big difference between someone who needs time to process and someone who's Just withholding attention from you, know, Gottman's are huge Relationship therapists they run a big love and relationships lab And they talk about, I forget exactly what the time limit is, but it's usually between 20 and 60 minutes.

If you're having a big discussion and you need a break and you need to process, that should be enough time. But if your partner's like, don't talk to me or leave me alone or gets mad when you do try to approach them, then you know that there's maybe some controlling behavior there. Another thing that I hear a lot is, and a lot of people don't realize this is emotionally abusive, when someone looks at you, and again, this is even layered, and says, I, I don't know if I could go on without you, [00:12:00] but not in like a

karly-latham: Oh my gosh, I didn't even know that.

shannon--she-her-: and yeah, and you have to be careful because, you know, of course, like when we're in love, we might say, Oh my God, I can't live without you.

And sure. every time someone says that it's abusive. And that's another thing we need to touch on too, is a lot of these can be really difficult because it's like, Oh my God, am I an abusive person? Because I say these things,

but if your partner's saying, No, I literally, I couldn't live without you, or goes even further to say, I

if you ever left me, even if they weren't, you know, they cannot, they could be saying this in a really of loving way, like, oh my God, I wouldn't survive without you. That does something to our psyche, to our nervous system, to suddenly be like, oh shit, I'm responsible

karly-latham: Yes.

shannon--she-her-: life. And if I leave, then if they do something,

karly-latham: That literally just blew my mind. Like, I. [00:13:00] I got it. I got a text and I I won't go word for word, but it's it's ingrained in Into my psyche, but I very long text So this is only like a brief part of it and it said i'm i'm messaging you from the hangman's noose I You know, I don't I don't The phrase it was like long and worded but like the phrasing was basically like I can't survive without you There's no point to life without you And by this point, I like, I saw it for what it was, but I still had this gut instinct of like What do I, what do I do?

What? I can't have that. What if, what if something actually happened? I've been through so much at this point. I can't stand the guilt. I ended up, I didn't reply until the next day. And then I ended up saying, there is, there is a future without me. Like, you know, but I. I, that, it, that really just blew my mind because I didn't, I didn't [00:14:00] have that pegged as abusive behavior.

But it is! Now that you say it, I'm like, oh yeah, that's not a healthy thing at all.

shannon--she-her-: No, it's a form of control. Cause I think, cause think about it in those moments. And again, I want to be careful because sure, we've all said things like, Oh my

Without you, you know, passively. But when someone is like truly saying it in a light of control, they're only

Themselves.

And when someone is. You know, when someone has an abusive personality or they're engaging in emotional abuse and they haven't done any sort of healing, goal is to make themselves feel safe and they're not thinking about you. So in that moment, receiving this message of, you know, I'm reading you from the Hanged Man's News, there's no future without you. There's no curiosity about your

karly-latham: Right.

shannon--she-her-: There's no compassion for your experience or empathy about what you're going through. It's very much, you

karly-latham: Mm hmm.

shannon--she-her-: me. I am the most important person here. that's where, you know, there's there's a [00:15:00] fantastic, fantastic author Lindsay Gibson. I, hopefully I'm getting that right.

She wrote the Adult Children of Emotionally Mature

karly-latham: Oh, I love that.

shannon--she-her-: about romantic, yeah, I know we're talking about romantic partners. But. Another great book, and she talks about how I forget the exact term she uses, but it's something along the lines of mutual emotional communication is, is vital to like sustaining a healthy relationship. And in the example you just gave, there's no Reciprocity. It's very much you have to come over to my side. You have to see what I'm experiencing. You have

karly-latham: Mm hmm.

shannon--she-her-: me. And my life is the only

karly-latham: Right.

shannon--she-her-: And so when there's, that kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about it being black and white.

That's when you really have to take a look and say, how am I feeling right now in this situation? You know, is this an appropriate response or, you know, an appropriate reaction to the situation? Or is this. [00:16:00] Yeah.

karly-latham: But you said something earlier that was also interesting to me because you said a couple different times You were like I want to be careful about the language because I say things like this, too You know when you're in love you say things like I can't imagine my life without you Not in the example that I just gave but I was wondering if you could tell any of the listeners like what if you do have those fears like

shannon--she-her: Mm

karly-latham: Like, okay, like, like this, I'll, I'll give you another one of my examples, because I'm, I'm blanking on another ones, but in my previous relationship If I was upset, I understood that I had to wait until I was calm to say anything.

And so that would look like me not really verbalizing much. And I will look back at those times. I read those lists and I'm like the silent treatment. And I go, well, does that count? Like, was I giving the silent treatment? And then I'll think back and I say, no, I was being [00:17:00] quiet because I just knew and understood that.

me pushing back Wouldn't like I had to be very very calm and very clear and often I had to be like I forgive you because but this is how I was feeling but it's okay. I'm not mad at you You know that type of explanation and I think that I think that, that is not a unique experience to me but if, if someone who is listening has been abused and is wondering if they are in fact the abuser, do you have any advice for them?

shannon--she-her-: Yeah. Yeah. So one way to find out, you know, and you know, we, none of us are 100 percent perfect. We, you know, behaviors learn. So I do want to say, you know, even as a therapist and I tell my clients this, I feel like I say this a lot. I'm going to be doing this exact sentence at least once a week when I am teaching couples how to communicate or, you know, be more compassionate or heal parts of [00:18:00] themselves. Even me, as I'm teaching people and trying to help people heal, I'm not perfect. There are times where like I say things or do things in the heat of the moment and then I have to reflect and go, Oh, fuck. I can't

karly-latham: Right.

shannon--she-her-: that. That was a totally unhealed part of me that came out and got triggered.

So then it's my responsibility to recognize that and then go to my partner or whoever I'm engaging with and say, was not appropriate for me to do that. Was that okay? I would like to talk about it. You know, I, I hope that we can process this together. I don't, you know, I don't want that to happen again but a way to tell, you know, what's abuse versus what's, you know, just, you know, us being imperfect humans, the, the reason we're not. The whole purpose of abuse, and a lot of people are not even conscious that they're doing it, though, is

karly-latham: Right.

shannon--she-her-: We want to control how we're feeling and we want to control the situation. So we were talking about the silent treatment. So a good example of am I processing or am I engaging in the silent treatment is, what is the end goal? Is your end goal to [00:19:00] one, keep yourself safe, like it sounds like you were doing? Well, it's safer for me to be quiet because then I know this will blow over and I, you know, just, You know, you're going to have to, you know, go along with things. Or is the goal for the other person to eventually come in and, you know, say,

karly-latham: Mm hmm.

shannon--she-her-: to me? So that the, the, you know, the perpetrator can then, you know,

karly-latham: Right.

shannon--she-her-: and, and say something like something that I hear often is, Oh, they don't give me space and they don't let me come to them. But if it's been. You know, a day or even like six hours. It's totally within the other partner's right to come up to that person and

karly-latham: Hey, what's going on? Yeah.

shannon--she-her-: Right. So if the, if the goal is to elicit some sort of reaction out of your partner, then you know that this, you know, quote unquote, silent treatment isn't coming from

karly-latham: Right.

shannon--she-her-: place. So it's more of, am I processing, am I really trying to figure out what I want to say? Am I writing notes? Am I [00:20:00] reflecting or am I sulking, hoping that the person will do something so that I can

karly-latham: Yep.

shannon--she-her-: them again?

karly-latham: That is a really, really good distinction because even that, I mean. Yeah, it goes back to motivation. My,

shannon--she-her-: That's a great way to describe

karly-latham: what is your motivation? Yeah. My, my therapist when things come up, she will tell me to stop and look at the motivation behind the actions. Especially. With the type of thing that I'm bringing to her and I'm like I reacted this this is how I feel I'm freaked out about XYZ and she said okay Well, what you need to do is take a step back and look at what the motivation for those actions were was that motivation?

to Offer you a genuine apology or was that motivation to get you back under control?

shannon--she-her: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. it can be so difficult, I'm so glad you're bringing this up, [00:21:00] because it can be even difficult to recognize the motivation, especially when you're really in the thick of it. Because a lot of times, you know, because behaviors learned, we might find ourselves in relationships, or we might be so ingrained in a relationship, that we think that the behavior that this person is engaging in.

karly-latham: Yeah,

shannon--she-her-: love. Well, they're so angry, they're so upset, or they're so emotional, and they're treating this way

karly-latham: yeah

shannon--she-her-: about me. And it's like, oof, I don't know, let's take a look at that. Like, is really truly caring about you, not talking to you for, you know, X amount of hours, and then berating you because you interrupted their, their silent treatment. So a lot of times too, we have to, you know, ask ourselves, What do I know to be love? Like, what does love mean to me? What did I learn love look like? How does love show up and care show up even in the midst of conflict or disagreements? And being [00:22:00] able to really take a look at how that's impacted you and how it shows up in your current relationships is really

karly-latham: Yeah, and that is fascinating because being in the moment it is hard To see and understand what's happening to you most of the time Okay, maybe not most of the time but like for me at least and for a lot of people that i've spoken to It's hard to see because that behavior was normalized

shannon--she-her-: Yes.

karly-latham: that's another thing that i'd love for you to touch on because You

shannon--she-her-: Hmm.

karly-latham: I, I can remember when things were getting pretty bad for me, I had very close, very well meaning, very wonderful people in my life who were saying, you're allowing this abuse to happen.

And I was like, what do you mean? I don't want this to happen. I don't even know what you're talking about. Potentially, they just needed to [00:23:00] hear, or they needed to phrase things a different way, but I didn't know that I was being abused in that time and space. So when they're saying, I'm allowing this abuse, I was like, why would I allow this?

I would never allow myself to be abused. I was being abused, but by that point in time, I That was my normal reality. It wasn't something like this. What was happening was like extreme, but the pattern of behavior to allow that set of circumstances to happen had been laid years ago. So by the time it finally all came to a head, I was just like, well, this sucks.

Yes.

shannon--she-her-: You know, as you're talking, I keep like replaying this quote in my head, I don't know who it's attributed to. I think it's like a super like well known quote, but it's something along the lines of a familiar hell is better than an unfamiliar

karly-latham: I do know that one.

shannon--she-her-: [00:24:00] And yeah, and there are other iterations of that quote. a lot of times we don't realize, well, okay, one, you know what to expect in

karly-latham: Right.

shannon--she-her-: and you get to the point where you know how to function. And so if you, if you're not realizing it's abuse, you know, that's one thing. If you are starting to realize, but it's, You know, there's a plethora of reasons why it's difficult to leave. And also, like, everyone tends to think that they're

karly-latham: Right? Right.

shannon--she-her-: reality, like, you're the expert on yourself. You're the expert on your relationship. Know, but there becomes a point in time where, you know, as humans, we thrive in familiarity. And so it can almost feel more unsafe to leave situations like that, because you don't know what to expect.

You've learned how to function. And in some regard, yourself safe in the conflict and, and actual lack of safety. But you've, [00:25:00] you've figured out how to function that you get to this point where you're like, well, you know, this is how I exist. And then, oh my God, there's a million other reasons why once people realize, you know, this is going on, that they can't leave, whether that's, you know, financial reasons not having enough support. A lot of times when you're in an abusive relationship. The control runs so deep that you maybe haven't worked. So now you can't get gainful employment or you don't have access to the finances because you know, maybe they made you feel like you weren't capable of paying the bills. So they made sure they handled all that and you didn't have access to any of the accounts and you know, they've probably isolated you from your friends and family at this point.

So you don't know who to turn to and you get to this point where you're like, well, I This life is all I have, and this unfamiliar hell is better than, you know, anything that is unfamiliar outside of here. So it becomes a point of, well, I know how to function in this space, [00:26:00] so I'm just to hang out here until, you know, something really

karly-latham: Yeah.

shannon--she-her-: or until like, I can

karly-latham: Yeah. That that was, you were describing the past version of me where I was like, I, I had fully admitted and accepted to myself that I was not going to be loved the way that I deserved in that relationship. I knew it. I truly believed at that point in my life that even if I were to leave, I would still be alone because who would want to date a single mom of three kids?

shannon--she-her-: I hear it all

karly-latham: worked in like. My daughter is 15, so I hadn't worked in like 14 years, you know, like it's like who

shannon--she-her-: Or had, like, a conventional job. Like, let's be real, like, you have plenty of

karly-latham: Oh, yeah. Yeah,

shannon--she-her-: but, like, yeah, maybe not,

karly-latham: exactly. I work. I work every day, but it's like but you know, it's

shannon--she-her-: Right.

karly-latham: That was that was the mindset and then it really did take like this big dramatic [00:27:00] thing for me to be like, oh, okay But that's that's the hard thing for people who haven't experienced abuse to understand is that Abusers were always abusers.

They didn't start out like that. It's not like Like you don't jump right into a relationship where you're treated like you're less than, right?

It's like, it's, it's like a trickle down effect where like, it's like one little thing and you're like, oh, I didn't, that doesn't feel great,

yeah, it's like, by the time you get to that point, it, your entire life, that, it's normalized to you. That is what your normal feels like.

Is it great? No.

shannon--she-her-: Well, you know, you bring up such a good point, too, and this is something that I hear all the time. Not only is it normalized, but you, you know, over often years of these kind of subtle digs, or, [00:28:00] you know, covert, interactions where you start to feel like, Oh, I'm lucky to be in this relationship because who else would want me? know, and I'd rather be here than deal with, you know, the horrors of dating or know, know, who else is going to find me desirable, you know, so I might as well just stay with this person because they're willing to put up with me and, you know, whatever. And that's really the goal is like these people who tend to engage in abusive tendencies often have pretty significant unhealed wounds themselves. Usually unhealed detachment based wounds, usually huge fears of abandonment. And so instead of being able to recognize their fear of abandonment. their brains are like, oh, I need to do whatever I can to make sure that this person doesn't leave. [00:29:00] And whether that's in their conscious awareness or not, they end up engaging in everything that we've talked about so far from, you know, you know, subtle threats to saying things that make you think that they, you know, are just so like, in love and care about you so much that they couldn't live without you that you eventually just start to think like, okay, well, I don't This is it.

This is the only person who I could ever be with because of, you know, all these other things. And then on top of that, going back to something we touched on before, you start to lose your sense of self. And if you don't know who you are and you only know who you are in this relationship, the fear of existing outside of that is absolutely like

karly-latham: Yeah. Yeah.

shannon--she-her-: Like you'd rather just stay functioning in the space that you know how to function in than try and figure out how to function in a world that you Maybe

karly-latham: Yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. It's a it's a huge part of Keeping the victim [00:30:00] stuck in the abuse cycle because it really is abuse at Its bottom line is a power dynamic and the abuser always wants to be on top So I appreciated what you said too about whether it's It's like if this is a subconscious thought or not, because some of these things I think are just programmed in and maybe these people don't even know that they're doing it.

But the fact is they are still doing it and they know on some level that them doing that will work and it will keep you there. And actually it brings me something you said. I don't remember what exactly. But. One of the things you were saying brought me up to another topic, which I thought that I had not experienced until I started looking back and I was like, okay, and that would be love bombing.

shannon--she-her-: I was gonna bring that up [00:31:00] because there was something you said a few minutes ago and I was like,

karly-latham: Yes, love bombing. Love bombing. So, I did not experience, at least to my memory, I did not experience love bombing at the beginning of my relationship, which is what I was looking at when I was looking back through my history. I was like, well, I don't think that one really applies because I didn't really experience any of that.

Love bombing. But I looked at more recent times when things started to go, to go south. And then all of a sudden, these big extravagant gestures.

And I remember being like, what the fuck? Like, like I'm, yeah. Like, I haven't had. anniversary, Christmas, birthday, Mother's Day for years and I'm getting this like, I don't know what to do with this. I'm like, okay, thank you. But it was that moment where I was like, okay, maybe it is fixable. Maybe it is salvageable.

And so, that is one other thing [00:32:00] that I wanted to talk about because even what you read online, love bombing typically happens at the beginning of a relationship to get you to fall deeply in love with them. But, it also comes back into play when the abuser knows that the victim may be getting ready to leave.

shannon--she-her-: And I'm so, I'm so glad you're talking about this. So what you just described is actually the cycle of

karly-latham: Mhm.

shannon--she-her-: control. So there, and this is, this is actually, you can go online and look up the power and control wheel or the cycle of intimate partner violence that they call it. So what happens is, you know, you have the, you know, the blow up or the fight or the disagreement or the really deep discussion about how, The relationship really isn't working or something happens and you know that can last from several hours to several days, several weeks, but then you end [00:33:00] up what they call back in the honeymoon phase or AKA the love bombing phase where you are showered with gifts.

Oh my gosh, I love you so much. It'll never happen again. I'm going to get better. I'm going

karly-latham: Mhm.

shannon--she-her-: going to do this. I'm going to do that. And they're just like telling you all these, you know, treating you the way that you've been craving to be treated the whole relationship. So what happens is you get a glimpse into

karly-latham: Yep.

shannon--she-her-: it could be like, Oh my God, this is what I've always wanted. But then eventually on this cycle, you end up in the tension building phase again. And that's when the love bombing that you're talking about starts to dissipate. And you know, maybe you're not getting flowers anymore. Maybe they're being grumpy again. know, maybe they're, you know gaslighting you or giving subtle digs or getting pissed off that you're going to hang out with your friends again.

You know, any of these that are not emotionally healthy. And so the tension building phase can also last

karly-latham: Mhm.

shannon--she-her-: months until there's eventually another big blow up, then you have the big blow up and then, you know, that lasts for an X amount of time [00:34:00] and then you're pretty much back down to the honeymoon phase.

And so this is why it's always such a big red flag when I'm working with couples or just an individual and they come in and they're talking about their relationship. And this just happened a couple of days ago. I'm working with someone and they were like, you know, I said, what keeps you in this relationship?

If you are not happy, like, talk to me about why, why you know, you find yourself like going back to this person, like what draws you in? so, The response that I got I was like, please don't say the response that I think you're gonna say when it's good.

karly-latham: Oh.

shannon--she-her-: It's so good But when it's bad, it's bad And when someone tells me that because like I've been working in intimate partner violence not as much anymore But like god I did it for like a whole decade I always heard that, and it's so indicative of this cycle.

When it's good, it's so good

karly-latham: Right.

shannon--she-her-: phase. But the reality is, like, we should be existing on, like, a pretty, like, level you know, field in our relationship. You know, yeah, we're going to have highs and lows, but, you know, we should be [00:35:00] feeling pretty content and appreciated and valued and heard and safe with our partner.

karly-latham: Yeah.

shannon--she-her-: not just when it's really good. So yeah, all of that to say you described the cycle of intimate partner

karly-latham: Yeah! That is, well, in I, one thing that I've been reading about recently is that that same cycle creates a sort of addiction to, to that feeling. And I don't like, cause like where I'm at now, I'm like, ew, like, ew like, I don't like the idea of being like addicted to a person, but I don't know that it's being addicted to the person so much as like, you just said.

You get the glimpse of being treated how you should be.

shannon--she-her-: Yeah.

karly-latham: have been treated the entire time. And it's like, well, but if they can be like this, like they have the capability, it's in them, it's inside of them somewhere. They know [00:36:00] how to behave like a decent human being. So if I just, if I just stick around, if I give it one last shot and that it, I mean, it keeps you stuck in that cycle until.

either until you're like enough is enough or something big and dramatic happens and you're like forcefully thrown off the merry go round. ,

shannon--she-her: Yeah, it's something to keep in mind, though, is, you know, you when you were talking about it, because I had said this to like, oh, you get a glimpse into what it could be like, but we have to remember that glimpse that you're getting isn't necessarily what they're capable of. That's their fear

karly-latham: oh,

shannon--she-her: That's them fearing abandonment, not, they're like, oh shit, my safety and my stability is being threatened right now, so I have to do whatever I can to feel safe. And then once that tension building stage starts building up again, that's because they feel safe. There's no need to shower you with love and affection because they're not threatened with

karly-latham: is fascinating. Yeah, and that [00:37:00] makes complete and perfect sense.

shannon--she-her-: Yeah,

karly-latham: thing that my therapist What it often says is that abusive people's behavior will always speak for themselves. Like, there was a few times where it was like, I don't, well, I'm afraid because what if X, Y, Z doesn't believe me, and My therapist's response, which goes very well with this, is that their true colors will show themselves.

They are incapable of that type of sustained change, so, that's, yeah, it really goes hand in hand. But another thing that I know that we both really wanted to touch on is cognitive dissonance.

shannon--she-her-: oh my gosh,

karly-latham: Can you, can you give us a brief explanation on what cognitive dissonance is?

shannon--she-her-: Yeah, so I mean to, in the most simple terms, it's when what you're feeling is different than what you're [00:38:00] experiencing. So you basically have, you know, these, these two opposing, you know, experiences creating a sense of significant discomfort. So the next thing we're going to do is talk a little bit about the relationships.

of intimate partner violence or emotional abuse is, and you touched on this briefly, when your partner Exists, you know that they're an inherently good person, you know, they, you know, on the outside, everyone knows them as like, you know, the, the loving doting, you know, or coworker or reliable person who someone can pick up the phone and they know you'll be there, but yet you're experiencing something so different than that experience. And trying to reconcile that cognitive dissonance can make you feel like you're

karly-latham: Yes.

shannon--she-her: Because it's like, well, I'm the only person [00:39:00] experiencing, you know, these difficult, uncomfortable, sad, frustrating, anxious, depressive emotions around you. Everyone else is viewing you as this loving, wonderful, caring, giving person. How do I make that make sense?

karly-latham: am I not experiencing this side of you? Yeah, yeah. So I, I became familiar with cognitive dissonance Through religious trauma, actually, that's where I was first introduced and I was like, that makes so much sense. But now seeing it applied to a different type of emotionally abusive situation actually was pretty hard for me because I do remember saying to people, like, I don't understand if this person can be like this in public, why are they not like this Behind closed doors like there there was such a huge difference, and I was like am I [00:40:00] dramatic what if I'm the problem you know?

shannon--she-her-: Right. Well, and even that, like, makes you, like, that experience really grates on your own value and self worth. So you start to think, well, this person deems all these

karly-latham: Yes

shannon--she-her-: because they're getting that level of care, attention, or kindness, or, or empathy, or compassion. I must

karly-latham: Yeah,

shannon--she-her-: of that.

And I should just

karly-latham: exactly

shannon--she-her: that they are allowing me to

karly-latham: Yeah, why am I not worthy of this same type of treatment which I'm not All really plays together because the ultimate goal is so that you feel low enough that you don't go anywhere.

shannon--she-her: Right. Exactly. There's

karly-latham: Yeah. Yeah. It is, it is super interesting though. And it's, that one is cognitive dissonance is difficult. No matter how long you've been away [00:41:00] from the relationship, I still occasionally will have flare ups when like, I.

shannon--she-her: Mm hmm.

karly-latham: over here or I have some interaction and I was like, well, that was actually really nice.

So like am I the asshole?

shannon--she-her: That's so tough. Yeah, because then you're going back and forth like, well, wait, I felt so uncomfortable yesterday, but this interaction was like pretty neutral or even

karly-latham: Yes

shannon--she-her: maybe I'm not, maybe I shouldn't feel the way I felt yesterday. Maybe I was just like, maybe I was just losing my mind. Or maybe I was just emotional.

And yeah, that back and forth, it's emotional whiplash. And it's,

karly-latham: Yeah

shannon--she-her: And it makes you question your

karly-latham: es you question the motivations it's like I try I try not to talk too much about mine You publicly but I mean there was there was points There was points that were incredibly serious [00:42:00] like The type of serious that I was like, am I living in a fucking lifetime movie right now?

Like what, you know, like that type of thing.

shannon--she-her: Yeah.

karly-latham: the very next day I could be like, well, maybe I overreacted though. And that's the crazy thing about cognitive dissonance is it's almost impossible to reconcile those two parts of the same person or to understand that The version of the abuser that other people are experiencing, that's still real and that's still valid because that is their interactions with them, but it also doesn't take away the interactions that you have.

When there's nobody else around, because that is their, that's their true self. They don't have to pretend. They're not trying to show off or to be like, I am this amazing person. You are experiencing a realer version of them than the public gets. But the in [00:43:00] between is so hard when, when it's you stuck in the cognitive dissonance.

shannon--she-her-: I think folks hearing that level of validation that you just gave them is really important because when, when your reality becomes so distorted, it almost like you, you can't stand up straight metaphorically, you know, because you're constantly like moving back and forth between, you know, one experience to the other, trying to find your footing. And I think this is why it's so important. If you're in this type of relationship dynamic right now, if you have been isolated, to make sure that you are trying to rebuild and establish relationships again, because having outside support in situations like this is really helpful. And then also engaging in activities and doing things that make you feel valuable and worthy and give you a sense of like your own autonomy and your own identity, because [00:44:00] Then it's, not that these situations or feelings still can't happen, but you're more likely to be able to recognize patterns as unhealthy and dangerous when you have a strong sense of self outside of

karly-latham: Yes. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, and I I didn't have that for A super long time. It's something I recently worked through in therapy because I was like I wasn't isolated I was turns out. But

shannon--she-her: hmm.

karly-latham: had online communities and I had online friends that I was able to I felt safe enough to talk to because they're not here.

They're not you know, it's not like they don't they don't know What's going on other than My experience of it right but that and tarot are the those are the two things that got me to like wake up and be Like I should not be living like this But what advice would you have for someone? Who maybe is still like in the thick of it who doesn't [00:45:00] have tarot who doesn't have an online community.

Like what are some beginning steps that someone could take once they're like I don't even know who I am anymore, and starting to realize that I could be in a bad, in a bad situation.

shannon--she-her: Yeah, and especially if you're, like, if you're someone who doesn't have a support system and you can't just, like, go and talk to someone and you feel super alone, honestly, educating yourself on anything and everything's vital. If you have access to the internet specifically related to emotional abuse stuff first, you can go to websites like, I think it's the hotline, hotline. org. You'll have to. put that in the show notes, but the National Domestic Violence Hotline is a great resource. And they actually have safety features on their website because I, I was affiliated with them years and years ago. They're a great organization. But if you go to their website, they even have like emergency, like leave now.

So if someone's walking around, they can't see that you're on the website. So lots of good resources there, but. Think about things that [00:46:00] interest you. What were you, what did you enjoy before the relationship? You know, what type of movies do you like? What type of media do you like to consume? Making sure that you're engaging in things that you happy or feel inspired in some way.

Like, that's honestly, like, the first tiptoe step into regaining some sense of autonomy or sense of self. Reading whatever you can, listening to whatever you can, either about this subject or anything that interests you. Like, that is the easiest thing that you can do because that's going to build your confidence.

And I think it's really important for us to maybe start finding social support again or reaching out to family because, you know, a lot of times our confidence is so shot being in relationships like this that it can be Or seem impossible to reach out to anyone for support because we just don't have the self esteem to do so. And so you can start to build that up just by like engaging in things that you think are interesting and you don't Have to tell your partner that you're reading a new book or you know watching something [00:47:00] or listening to something because a lot of times, you know folks will say oh I was Judged or made fun of for the

karly-latham: Yeah.

shannon--she-her: and so you start to lose those So trying to find ways that you can kind of Re engage with those are really important.

That's the easiest thing that you can do especially when

karly-latham: Yeah. Things that you're doing just for you and for no one else. And you actually said something that made me think of another question that I wanted to ask. Um, what would you say to the people who And maybe they're experiencing abuse and they're starting to recognize that they're experiencing abuse, but they don't know how to tell their friends or loved ones what's going on.

Like, I, I will say in my situation, by the time that things were getting really bad, I was living several states away from my family. And I had a very close friend group, but they all knew [00:48:00] my partner at the time. And so I was like, well, I don't know, I don't know how to talk about this cause I don't want to make them look bad.

I, you know, I don't, I don't want them to, I don't want their opinion on them to change because they're a nice person, you know, things like that. But like, there does come a point where. The victim needs to be able to learn how to open up about what's going on with them, so like, do you have any advice for anybody who may be feeling that way?

shannon--she-her: Oh my gosh, yeah, and the embarrassment and even like the feeling like you're doing something wrong by talking about this person and feeling like you're betraying them. And and again, it's that cognitive dissonance and even the questioning your own reality because it's like, well, should I talk about this?

Because I maybe I'm the crazy one or maybe maybe this isn't as bad as I think it is. I think if you're questioning or [00:49:00] concerned, clearly your intuition is like. Spiked and saying, Hey, this is something you should explore. I always tell people when you're going to share something about your relationship with friends and family, you know, choose someone who you, you feel is safe and that you do trust.

And you can always preface it with saying, this is really

karly-latham: Mm hmm.

shannon--she-her: about. I have not talked about this with anyone. I don't want any sort of advice. I don't want any sort of opinions. I feel like I just need to share how I've been feeling in this relationship. So that someone

karly-latham: Yeah.

shannon--she-her: me, and I just need you to listen to me.

I just need to say a couple things and I don't want you to think any differently of this person You know, you can always preface it with that because a lot of times when we do share things we're Immediately getting unsolicited advice. Oh just do this just do that. Just

karly-latham: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

shannon--she-her: important It's simple. So going [00:50:00] into these interactions and saying, kind of like setting the expectations, setting the tone. Also, this is a really good way to practice setting boundaries because a lot of times in these emotionally abusive relationships, there are no boundaries. So you can practice setting boundaries by saying, Hey, this is what I need.

This is what I expect doing it with a person who you know, isn't going to reciprocate in a negative, negative way, but I would choose one person first. You know, it can be a little messy if you're just like suddenly going around and telling everybody and you want to keep yourself safe. You don't want, you know, depending on the type of, know, dynamics you have, you don't want word to get around and then you put yourself in an unsafe situation. Um, because, you know, dealing with intimate partner violence or emotional abuse is inherently dangerous, even if there isn't physical

karly-latham: Yeah. Actually, that That is a perfect lead in because something that they say, they, this is usually directed towards physically abusive relationships, is [00:51:00] that the most dangerous time for a victim is when they are leaving. But I think what's talked about less often is that that also includes emotional abuse.

It basically. Shit gets scary really, really fast. I can't talk about this part, but I can say from personal experience that I have found myself in situations that I thought were impossible because just based on, on my lived experiences with this person, I wouldn't have thought it was possible until I was leaving.

And then all of a sudden I was like, holy shit. So. Do you have any, any words for people who are looking to safely leave? Even if I hate, I, I just, I almost just said, even if it's just an emotionally abusive relationship, , I'm adding to the problem here.

shannon--she-her: mm, mm, mm,

karly-latham: I think that knowing that people [00:52:00] who experience emotional abuse.

often stay longer because they feel unsafe, even if there is no physical threat to them, is important to emphasize, even if it's Like we were talking about earlier, you can't imagine your life without this person. They have financial control over you. They could be your financial provider. There's so, so, so many reasons why an abuse victim might stay and instead of having the conversation be like, well, why did you stay?

Why are you allowing this abuse to continue? Why haven't you left? Is there anything? we can do to encourage them to safely leave or to feel safe as they are leaving.

shannon--she-her: Yeah, so several things. First, I just want to reiterate, you're absolutely right. Research does show the most dangerous time to, for a person in an abusive relationship is [00:53:00] when they leave, so that's why support and having a safety plan is really important, which I'll talk about more in a second. The other thing I want to reiterate, just to maybe make people feel a little bit better, on average, and this was like the last time I looked at the research, which admittedly was a little while ago, the person who, Is being abused will attempt to leave or leave on average seven times before they finally truly 100% leave the relationship.

So if you find yourself kind of coming and going, coming and going, like, please don't be down

karly-latham: Yeah.

shannon--she-her: Like that's what happens. The best thing you can do, and this is when I was really deep in to. You know, working with folks who are experiencing intimate partner violence, the very first thing we did was help them

karly-latham: Mm

shannon--she-her: plan. So you, and an actual physical bag. So you want to have, you know, a bag that you can just

karly-latham: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

shannon--she-her: a [00:54:00] passport any sort of important documents, medical records, just a change of clothes, maybe Toiletries, anything that you might need that you can just grab and quickly leave if, like, shit gets real dicey. Like, I just need to get the hell out of here. That's incredibly important. So safety plan, who, where would you go? Who would you talk to? Having a bag on hand. Oh my gosh, and there's one more thing I was just gonna say, and it's, it's evading me. It was something that you said a second ago. Shoot. Oh, I wanted to touch on the fact that, you know, because you were, you were saying I'm contributing to the problem because you

karly-latham: Even if it's just, yeah.

shannon--she-her: So something that I learned both working directly with folks who were experiencing intimate partner violence and through the research, I have never heard someone say anything other than the emotional abuse was always worse than the physical abuse.

They would even [00:55:00] say. I would have rather gotten hit than to experience the mental, physical, and psychological

karly-latham: Yeah.

shannon--she-her: I did. So, and that, I mean, I've never heard anyone not say that. Not to diminish or like, even like, say that that's not, physical abuse is, is not as bad. But yeah, the mental and emotional is

karly-latham: No, I agree. I mean, I can't say that I've wished that I had been hit, but there have been times that I wished that there was some mark to show that, like, what's on the inside, because, I mean, look at me, I look, I look perfectly fine on the outside, but on the inside, I've got, I have PTSD now. I think, technically, I have C PTSD, but I don't think that's an official diagnosis, so I go with, I go with PTSD.

I have autoimmune disease symptoms now that I didn't have before that flare up correspondingly to my stress levels relating to my abuse, you know, so it's like [00:56:00] I have so many issues now that I didn't before and I almost like, I would rather, I would rather have a broken bone and just, you know, Just let it heal and, and, and be done.

shannon--she-her: Right, right, right. But that's honestly like what I've heard survivors say is, I, They would look at me and they would say, I can heal bruises, I can heal bones. And we would, you know, they were like, you know, that has a definitive timetable of when this can heal. And of course, this is

karly-latham: right,

shannon--she-her: you know, talking, but, you know, they would say, don't feel as hopeful about being

karly-latham: yeah.

shannon--she-her: the invisible wounds that this experience has caused and the not having hope or even being able to seal, see things heal can be really difficult.

You know, because you can see, you know, physical wounds heal. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's something that is absolutely Like, real, and not [00:57:00] something that should be taken lightly, and you know, people absolutely are not

karly-latham: Yeah,

shannon--she-her: in this experience, and it's just not talked

karly-latham: yeah, and I guess maybe one of the last things we'll talk about is that loss of hope that you were just describing. That's something that I have talked about a lot on my page. It comes with, it comes with PTSD. It comes, I mean, there's, there's so many different causes from that, but there have been times, even recently, where I was like, this is just never gonna end.

I'm never gonna feel any better than I feel right now. So what's the point in trying to heal these wounds? What good is it doing me? And I can sit here now and say, those feelings are temporary. They don't last forever, much like you have good days, you have bad days. The same is true with healing from emotional abuse, but your good days may feel really, really good.

And your bad days may feel [00:58:00] even worse because you just remembered what it's like to have a good day. You know, it's, It's, it's that, it's that up and down, but what would you say to an abuse survivor who is struggling with the loss of hope that they can heal from these wounds? Mm hmm. Mm

shannon--she-her: You know, it's, it's so complicated. Those are often the most, you know, tough cases or clients because, you know, on the outside, you so desperately want to kind of console them and, you know, provide those platitudes that we're so used to hearing, you know, Oh, it's going to be okay. Just, you know, think about your future.

But the damage can be so deep that thinking about your, your future can almost feel impossible. when that happens, I tell people, want you to just think of, you know, something each day that you might be looking forward to [00:59:00] small as it can be. Know, maybe it's the cup of coffee that you're going to make, and you're going to be so happy to drink that coffee. When you have, like, small moments like that where you give yourself permission to look forward to something, that's when you're able to rebuild a sense of hope. Because it's like, okay, I've, I've kind of Refilled my reservoir, so to speak, because you're essentially depleted of the ability to hope or have any sort of ability to be excited about your future in instances like this.

So you almost have to go back to basics. It's like a child learning how to walk. You have to learn how to

karly-latham: Yeah.

shannon--she-her: brain. You have to learn how to be kind and compassionate and empathetic to yourself. So one small thing every single day. It could be as simple as, Oh my God, I hope that I get to have a really hot shower later, you know, and then allow yourself to have a hot shower.

It's, it's these things that you, you know, maybe would take for granted or not even think about [01:00:00] that can then lead to bigger things. So like, if you're trying to reestablish your identity and autonomy again, and you're, you know like, you know, Carly and I are into tarot. So we're like, okay, let's, you know, maybe you are too.

And you're excited about exploring that again. Maybe you can get excited about

karly-latham: Yes.

shannon--she-her: You know, it's, it's those small things that eventually lead to your capacity to have a greater hope for what could be you know, down the road. But yeah, it's not realistic to think like, Oh, suddenly I'm going to have this, you know, infinite reservoir of. You know, hope and what my future could be. We have to be realistic. You know, you are essentially, know, rebuilding who you are and what your

karly-latham: Yeah.

shannon--she-her: in, in situations like this. So having a realistic grasp on, you know, the beginning stages of that is what's going to set you up for

karly-latham: I love that. I get really, I get really excited about eating. I love

shannon--she-her: Right. I get

karly-latham: coffee.

shannon--she-her: I'm like, Ooh, I

karly-latham: [01:01:00] Oh yes. I like, I will pick out a movie that I want to watch later in the day and I just like, I look forward to like curling up in my blankets and like watching that movie.

shannon--she-her: Yep.

karly-latham_: But yeah, I had for a long time, I'd gotten to the point where like, I worked really hard to rebuild myself and to find all the things that I found fun and like that really gave me life and I felt Like all that got taken from me in the process of all of this happening.

So I kind of went back to square One and I was like, well, I hate this but for a little while the only thing that I really found myself looking forward to was making these like weird little tender morsels of snacks and like I like Like I love putting together flavors that shouldn't go together But somehow work and it's just like amazing

shannon--she-her: Yeah.

karly-latham: life It's Like even on my worst days, I can still find something to be happy and [01:02:00] excited about.

But until you've been through it, it is hard to describe the level of despair that comes from healing from this type of relationship because it's not like I almost feel like it needs its own categorization because I have depression, so I know what it feels like to be depressed, I know what it feels like to be anxious, but this sort of like desert hellscape of like, you're, it's like you're dehydrated, like your tongue is like dried up, and you're walking on scorching coals trying to get to an oasis and then wondering if you're Is that an oasis or is that a fucking mirage, you know? I guess the last thing that I wanted to say is that Feeling that way is, feels very isolating. It feels super hard because even if you're talking to another.

person who has been through abuse or someone who professionally understands it or, you know, [01:03:00] even someone who can somewhat relate. You still have to carry those feelings alone. At the end of the day, it's you and your mind who are fighting for the toughest battles that you are going to face and so I I used to like curl up like a like a fucking honey badger when people would say this to me and be like Don't tell me i'm strong

shannon--she-her: Yeah.

karly-latham: me I've ranted about this I, yeah, see, that's it. Like, I'm so tired of being strong. I don't want to be strong. I don't want to be resilient. I just want the fucking peace, you know,

shannon--she-her: Yes. Yeah.

karly-latham: anybody listening to these conversations and to these stories feels maybe just a little bit less alone, even if it's just in knowing that there are other people who have felt that way and are on the other side of it hope it helps to hear that eventually you won't feel like you're stranded in the [01:04:00] desert.

You'll find water, you'll find water. It's there. It's not a mirage. It's real. And yeah, do you have any, any other bit of advice that you want to, that you want to give to people?

shannon--she-her: I think just educating yourself as much as possible on this topic, reading, whatever you can. There's some great resources, you know, out there. I can link them to you

karly-latham: Oh yeah, that'd be great.

shannon--she-her: Show notes or share with folks. And really just being curious. It's about yourself and your experiences and just reminding yourself or giving yourself the empathy, patience, and compassion.

You know, that maybe you haven't been given by others. And like you said, knowing that every day is going to be different. amazing and it's okay for you to have days where you just want to curl up in a ball and cry because those days are equally as important as the days where you're feeling, you know, hopeful and strong.

So really just being patient and curious about yourself I [01:05:00] think are important

karly-latham: Yeah, I love the, I love the curiosity note. I feel like I'm always, if I can get curious about something, it pulls me out of, out of the headspace. If it's a historical fact, if it's a, a, a bit of knowledge on Pinterest that I didn't know before that I can follow. And actually, I'll say Pinterest has been an amazing resource for me.

Pinterest has shown me so many things that I'm like, Pinterest.

shannon--she-her: Right? We don't talk about Pinterest anymore, but honestly, like, Pinterest is my

karly-latham: Right?

shannon--she-her: Like, social media platform, when I'm anxious or sad, I just open

karly-latham: Oh my gosh!

shannon--she-her: it immediately, like,

karly-latham: It does! It does! Me too!

shannon--she-her: We're sleeping

karly-latham: Pinterest, and I have two Pinterest accounts, I have my one, the Village Terowitch even though I'm going I don't buy my real name instead of the screen name anymore. And then I have a personal one and they're both curated. So sometimes I'm like, that's enough mental health stuff.

And I switched to my personal one and it's just these like [01:06:00] bright, colorful paintings. I'm like, Oh,

shannon--she-her: Right, exactly.

karly-latham: Yeah. But Pinterest is an incredible resource for me. Because sometimes I can go on there and I can just like, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I will type in narcissistic abuse, and I read quotes, I'll be like, oh, that makes sense, or, you know, things like that, that It's just, it's exploring the different terminologies in a different way.

Like one day I may go deep into a gaslighting rabbit hole and be like, I understand this. The next day I might be researching Anne Boleyn, you know, I don't know.

shannon--she-her: Right, right.

karly-latham: I do too.

shannon--she-her: Yeah.

karly-latham: Yes.

shannon--she-her: Balance.

karly-latham: all about balance. Yeah. But yeah, I am glad you said that because curiosity is the key to reclaiming yourself and, and finding those lost pieces of [01:07:00] you

Thank you for joining me. Do you have any upcoming projects? Do you want to talk about the about your online community or anything like that before we sign off?

shannon--she-her: Oh, I mean. Yeah. I mean, I have the Tarot Diagnosis Podcast. Episodes are usually weekly, sometimes bi weekly, but I just talk about mental health through the lens of tarot and there's a community that goes along with that where, you know, I have workshops and live events where people get to hang out and talk life kind of conversations that we're having right now all through the lens of, you know, the archetypes we see in tarot.

So, yeah. Yeah, I really love having these types of conversations. They're, you know, make me think, and

karly-latham: Me too.

shannon--she-her: have people like you in the community who value these

karly-latham: Yes. I think, I love talking about things like this but I also feel like conversations like this are what open the door to educating others. Other people, people who are in it, people who know someone who have been in [01:08:00] it. And the more we can learn, hopefully the more we can evolve and recognize some of these patterns.

before it gets to the point where you get a PTSD diagnosis.

shannon--she-her-_1_06-19-2024_131614: Right, yeah, let's

karly-latham: That's,

shannon--she-her: that.

karly-latham: the goal here. Don't be like me.

shannon--she-her: But if you

karly-latham: But if you are, that's okay too. Join the club.

shannon--she-her: You're

karly-latham_1_06-19-2024_151616: Yes, no, I always like to say that my favorite people are all a little bit broken because we all love to have, we all love to talk about these things. Once you know about it, you talk about it. So thank you so much for coming on and I'll have all of your info listed in the show notes so anybody who's interested can find you.

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