14. Why Engaging Leadership is Better Leadership w/ Dan Edds, MBA

Swift Healthcare

In this episode, we discuss what engagement is all about and what healthcare folks should be expecting from their leaders. The guest is Dan Edds MBA, who for 25 years has been a practicing management consultant, working with state & local government, healthcare, K-12 education, higher education, and nonprofits.

Dan Edds, MBA is the author of 2 books, the first, Transformation Management, and his most recent, Leveraging the Genetics of Leadership, Cracking the code of sustainable team performance. His latest book demonstrates how organizations are revolutionizing the practice of leadership, recreating the world of work, and setting new standards for employee engagement and customer value.

Dan Edds, MBA links:

https://danieledds.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/danieledds/

Music Credit:

Jason Shaw from www.Audionautix.com

THE IMPERFECT SHOW NOTES

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What we can offer currently are these imperfect show notes. The transcription is far from perfect. But hopefully it’s close enough - even with the errors - to give those who aren’t able or inclined to audio interviews a way to participate. Please enjoy!

Why Engaging Leadership is Better Leadership w/ Dan Edds, MBA

[00:00:00] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:00:00] Welcome folks to the Swift healthcare video podcast. I'm Patrick Swift. And I want to thank you for tuning in dialing in for watching being here. And I have a wonderful guest for us, Dan EDS, Dan, welcome to the

[00:00:12] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:00:12] show. Thank you. Great to be with you.

[00:00:15]Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:00:15] Well, let me share with everyone your bio.

[00:00:18] This is a good one. Listen to this for 25 years. Dan EDS has been practicing, as a management consultant, working with state and local government healthcare, K through 12 education and nonprofits. He's the author of two books. The first was transformation management and his most recent leveraging the genetics of leadership cracking the code of sustainable team performance.

[00:00:39] Is out and available. And his latest book describes how organizations are revolutionizing the practice of leadership. Recreating the world of work. You hear that he's recreating, not just keeping with the status quo and setting new standards for employee engagement and customer value. Dan, welcome to the show.

[00:00:56]Dan Edds, MBA: [00:00:56] Thank you, Patrick.

[00:00:57]Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:00:57] And I'd like to add also Dan, uh, [00:01:00] uh, doesn't have, I mean, it'd be saying this, but he's also a part of the advisory board and his local salvation army. So thank you, Dan, for your service to humanity. And, uh, I will ring a bell, uh, in celebration of the salvation army for a timeless recording.

[00:01:14] Someone may listen to this in December or maybe July, but, uh, thank, thank you. Support the salvation army, right? Abs absolutely. It's a, it's a, one of the world's fabulous organizations. It truly is. So in our episode today, uh, talking about engagement, talking about driving engagement, talking about, uh, leadership, discussing the intersection of healthcare and leadership, whether a listener is a leader.

[00:01:37] Whether a listener is a aspiring leader, whether someone's just seen a leader, uh, or someone is considering moving into a leadership position or wanting to be part of the conversation. The intention with this show is to. Pop the hood and give a chance to look under the hood about what's going on in healthcare from how we think about healthcare as leaders and as human beings, caring for [00:02:00] human beings.

[00:02:00]And Dan has a wealth of experience helping, uh, executives, helping organizations and helping leaders do better, not just a. Improve the metrics, but also to make a bigger impact on this planet. So, Dan, again, welcome to the show and I appreciate all your expertise. You're bringing to the table here.

[00:02:17] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:02:17] Thank you, Patrick. I'm honored.

[00:02:19] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:02:19] Yeah. So let's talk about engagement and I'd like to ask you in your own words to define engagement can mean a lot of different things in different people. And you've got a great perspective here on what is it engagement about?

[00:02:32]Dan Edds, MBA: [00:02:32] Well, that's a great question. And, uh, there's a couple of definitions. , but basically engagement means we are intellectually, psychologically and emotionally engaged with our work. , practically the way that works out is we like going to our work every day. We don't see it as drudgery. We see it as a place where we can contribute where we can give our best when we can feel that we are, , our, our voices valued and [00:03:00] respected where we, you know, I say where we can contribute.

[00:03:03] One of the interesting things I've noticed in my consulting journey is. I have never yet found a worker or a team that didn't want to contribute. in spite of what their boss has said sometimes, um, I consistently find that people want to feel good about what their work they want to feel proud of, who they work for. Right. And consistently time after time, after time, I find they are willing to sacrifice personal time so that they could work for an organization or a team that's a high performing.

[00:03:39] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:03:39] I love that. You said that Dan, because we, and we'll get into this, but you and I both know there's a certain percentage of the workforce that's actively disengaged, right?

[00:03:47] Sure. Sure. But what you're saying is hopeful. And there was a part in back of my mind. I'm like Dan, really? And, , what you're touching on is the hope that, , I think I've said before in another show, people don't choose evil for evil sake. They mistake [00:04:00] it for happiness. And what you're touching on is that.

[00:04:03] People want to make a difference. Even the one who's actively disengaged. If you ask that person, are you a jerk? That person won't say, no, I'm not a jerk. I just don't like the way things are done around here. Or I do want to make a difference. It's just, you guys suck as leaders and your message here. Dan is how can we, as leaders do a better job to engage everyone and not just the top. 87%, uh, who are making that difference. But even including the folks who are actively disengaged and quite frankly, have some good to tell us that we can improve in our leadership.

[00:04:34] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:04:34] Yep. You know, Gallup tells us that within, within the U S right now, uh, two thirds, 65% of the American workforce is either not engaged means they go to, they go to their job, they do their work. Uh, they do what they're told. They don't make any waves and they go home and forget about it. They basically don't care. Um, another 13% are, you know, drilling holes in the back of the [00:05:00] lifeboat. worldwide, that number is 85%. So that is the percentage that's not engaged right now. According to Gallup is in the, in this, here in the States, it's 52%, half of us go to work and we are, we don't care.

[00:05:15]Yeah. If, if organizations that intentionally seek to engage that middle 50%, when they do, they see an automatic bump in productivity and automatic bump in innovation in. Customer satisfaction and Oh, by the way, a huge bump in employee engagement. And they end up with employees that want to be there.

[00:05:39]Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:05:39] That sounds like joy to me. So Dan, tell me, what is your, why behind all this? What, what, what, what about you? Yeah,

[00:05:47] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:05:47] so my, why. , has developed over time. There was never a one point that said, Oh, this is my why, but, uh, I'll give you one example. , it was maybe seven, eight years ago. , I was doing a project for a fairly [00:06:00] sizable state agency. , this agency happened to, , license 450,000 healthcare providers. And, , And they were a certifiable mess. And I can personally attest to having experienced that for licensure with the state agency. And I'm sure other healthcare providers listening to this show have done the state agencies, trying to get their license renewed and all that. Yeah, it was all that. And this group was a mess and, , it was my last, , meeting with the deputy director and, , You know, it was going to take them probably 18 months to implement what, what we had done.

[00:06:31]Uh, but there was some light at the end of the tunnel. And, , I was about ready to walk out the door. I had my coat on, I had my computer bag in my hand. My hand was on the door and almost in a confessional tone. She said, you know, I don't even tell my friends where I work anymore. Oh. And I turned around. I said, why?

[00:06:50]And she said, it's just too embarrassing. And I'd love to say I've never heard that ever before or since, but your reality is I've heard it [00:07:00] dozens of times in various ways in various venues. Um, P. And I come back to the same thing. People want to be excited. They want to be proud of where they work. And when I looked at this particular deputy director in the organization that she was working for, there is no bad people there, but she was working in a system that rewarded the executive leaders for their position and, placement to the governor.

[00:07:27]And they were not working in a system that required them or rewarded them to take care of their people, to take care of their customers, if you will, and to create an atmosphere within the organization or a culture within the organization that people wanted to come to. Um, and when I walked out of her office, the something just struck me out of that. You know, this was a crime, this is, this is real crime, a crime that a bright, smart well-educated caring, [00:08:00] compassionate, hardworking woman would feel embarrassed to tell her friends where she works.

[00:08:06] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:08:06] Wow. That's powerful. And when I think about. The amount of hospitals across this country. And there's those that are in the top 50%, there are those in the bottom quarter and ratings. So there's possibly a listener. Who's part of a health system or hospital or medical practice. That's in the bottom quarter where they're not proud of where they work and that's not a good feeling. And, and we as leaders have an opportunity. To influence that. So God bless you for choosing to do this kind of work. Number one, Dan too. How can leaders sustain employee engagement and drive quality?

[00:08:49] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:08:49] Yeah. Great question. I'll reference to studies. So you get to the technical part first. Gallup says that 70% of the engagement of employees is a direct [00:09:00] relationship to their manager. Kind of the old idea of people don't leave their companies or their organizations.

[00:09:04] They leave their manager truth and the MIT Sloan, management review report that came out right out exactly a year ago. , a report in there said that the number one factor in employee engagement is a spirit of collaboration with the team. Now you could add a lot of things to that.

[00:09:24] You could add what Google has found. Something called psychological safety, where people feel psychologically safe to express themselves, to express an opinion to say, Hey, I don't agree with this direction. Or I have an idea over here and to express those opinions without. It's a fear of ridicule. Um, in my research for the book, I found organizations that said, , we value respect.

[00:09:49] And, and everything is going to be driven off of a culture of respect. I found in the United States army, , I had, I had interviews with two senior officers. One was a full Colonel [00:10:00] member of the special forces, us army ranger, and another one, a retired four star general, who also served in the Clinton administration in a cabinet position.

[00:10:08]I asked both of these guys, , how does the army approach leadership? And they both said we practice servant leadership. And then the next breath they started using a word that totally blew me away. And they started talking to me about love and how to love a soldier. Yes, that's the word? That's the word they used love.

[00:10:31]And, and to my discredit, when I was talking to the Colonel, I somewhat discounted his perspective because he was also chaplain. Okay. And I, and I thought, okay, he's a chaplain that sort of fits. But later I'm talking with, , his name of general Barry McCaffrey, and you'll still see him on the news. He's a, he's a consultant for NBC news , on issues of national security.

[00:10:56]And I said, so how does the army approach leadership? And he says, well, we [00:11:00] practice servant leadership. And the next. Literally the next breath he's telling me about love, love on the battlefield. He's telling me about his experience with general Norman Schwarzkopf in the first Gulf war. And he said I was in is exactly what he said.

[00:11:16]I was one of his divisional commanders, which for us non army types, that means that general McCaffrey had a small workforce. The 26,000 soldiers. And he said, and this is exactly what he said. He Schwarzkopf actually loved me. Oh. And I'll be honest. I

[00:11:34] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:11:34] didn't say that about their CEO is.

[00:11:37] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:11:37] Yeah, I didn't hear that when I was talking to him, I didn't even hear it till I was reading the transcript. And then I read, I thought, could he really say that? And here you have a guy. He has led men into combat. He knows what that means. And did they end today? It would be men and women. he holds three

[00:11:58] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:11:58] purple hearts

[00:12:00] [00:11:59] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:11:59] for wounds received in combat in Vietnam. And here he is talking to me without shame about. Love in the United States army as a senior officer,

[00:12:12] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:12:12] that gives me chills. That gives me chills. Beautiful point, beautiful point. And I've I actually got a quote here in your book and you didn't know this morning. I was going to be highlighting this, but you've got a quote that I want to, I want to read here to here, cause we're talking about servant leadership. Servant leadership is a philosophy that says the best leaders serve the workforce. They look out for the welfare of their subordinates. They willingly share power and help those. They serve grow. It's a nice idea. A lot of people talk and write about, but few know how to implement it. And I think what you're touching on there, the DNA of growing that and implementing it is love.

[00:12:51]Dan Edds, MBA: [00:12:51] It is. And, and, and frankly that word in the context of, you know, organizational leadership and management and, uh, it, it [00:13:00] makes me uncomfortable. Um, it, it just, I'm just not used to that

[00:13:04] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:13:04] word. Good on you for still hanging in there. Cause I'm gonna, I'm going to go on and read here one more little part here. Cause this is delicious. And in a conversation I had with a senior executive of an international nonprofit. She joked that she'd had a supervisor who understood servant leadership as serving the coffee at the Monday morning staff meetings, the rest of the week, he just acted like a jerk. I mean, coffee, coffee is the way to my heart, the prospect that, that, um, uh, the way she describes that, that solemn perceived servant leadership is, you know, pouring your coffee in the morning and then.

[00:13:37] I just act like a jerk the rest of the week. Um, there are leaders in healthcare. , there are leaders in all disciplines that have that perspective, but there are also leaders who stand on a foundation of love and grace and compassion and respect. And it's those leaders that, , we want to, to emulate, to highlight, to celebrate.

[00:13:57] And the fact that you wrote a book on a [00:14:00] transformational roadmap for engaging your workforce. and we're talking about love. , it gives me chills. So, so thank you

[00:14:05] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:14:05] for that. Yeah. Well, and the, and the point of the book is, is really, we can talk about engaging the workforce and improving the leadership of individual leaders. 99% of the books that get written on leadership is all about improving your leadership so that you are, you will either, you will do a better job of, uh, hiring a following. Yeah. , unfortunately that can't scale to, let's say a hospital with 5,000 employees.

[00:14:36] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:14:36] Yeah. So throw me some meat here, front of the book, , about three things to listen to right now, driving down the road, um, jocking down the road or at the desk, um, that can, talk away. Yeah, or how to drive engagement, , driving value in the organization by, , celebrating the, the, we, and then the human in the work that we do. . So

[00:14:56] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:14:56] I'll give you one example. it's one of my, , it's one of the case studies in the [00:15:00] book it's with a hospital that has consistently ranked as one of the safest hospitals in the country. Uh, some have, , suggested it might even be one of the safest hospitals in the world and, , Everything in this hospital starts out with a value of respect, respect for the work, respect for the worker and respect for the patient. And I think virtually every decision they make is made through this lens of respect.

[00:15:25]So when it comes to the worker, , how do they respect the worker? Well, one way they do it, and this is one of the, , the major findings that I saw. High-impact organizations that consistently are able to engage their employees, see their employees, not as an asset to be managed, which is a nice way of saying controlled.

[00:15:48] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:15:48] Yeah, yeah. Or a widget to

[00:15:49] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:15:49] produce or a widget. Right. As a unit action. Yeah. They see their employees. Their workforce has human beings that are worthy of being [00:16:00] developed forever. Increasing value. So, for example, , this healthcare, , organization by rule, they train their leaders to not to be problem solvers.

[00:16:11]Now for you and us, myself, and those people in leadership positions. That's, that's a whole different paradigm because we are trained to be problem solvers. This hospital says, no, we don't want our leaders and clinic managers to be problem solvers. In fact, we want them to push problem solving down to the. To the level where the problem is actually occurring because those people understand the problem better. And so if you are my say, my boss and I came to you with a problem, there's automatically two issues to deal with. Number one, I am coming to you by training leaders ought to be coming to me. In fact, you should be visiting with me at my workstation probably every day at a specific point in time.

[00:16:58]So, , that's the first problem. [00:17:00] You're not doing your job. If I'm coming to you with a problem, second thing is your job is to help me think through the problem, understand the scope of the problem, understand who the other people that may be effected by that problem, who they are, and maybe how they are being impacted by that problem. But ultimately your job is to tell me, I trust you. You solve the problem and I'll support you. And I

[00:17:26] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:17:26] I'm loving what you're saying, because there's two elements I want to underline here. One is some that some of the folks are very familiar with, which is leader, rounding and connecting with your staff. Yep. But there's also one thing is moving your feet to your, your, your people, right? The other is how you listen and what you're proposing, which is radical. For some, I think it's radical is to not be the person with the answers intentionally not being the person with the answers, but intentionally listening to what people have to say about how we can do things better, how to solve the problem.

[00:17:58] Right. And I want to ask [00:18:00] you, there is someone listening who works in environment, where they would love to do that, and that's their style. They're even servant leaders and they work in an organization that says that they value that. But the senior leadership at the very top expects the next layer down to have all the answers.

[00:18:17] And then the next layer then has to have all the answers. And then you've got leaders on conference calls, zoom calls that are after report. Why, why are the metrics where they are? And you've got to have all the answers. So there's a conflict here. Help me solve this in which you've got a middle, someone who's part.

[00:18:32] Part of the solution, whether you're a leader or an informal leader where you make a difference, all of us, but to work in a place where the culture doesn't respect, that the folks that are closest to the problems have the answers. And it's the senior leaders expect , , the leaders to have all the answers to begin with. So how would you navigate that?

[00:18:53]Dan Edds, MBA: [00:18:53] Well, that is a huge problem. And it's not going to be a problem. It's going to get fixed overnight because

[00:18:57] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:18:57] you give an answer in 20 seconds or less. [00:19:00] This is a complicated question, but what advice do

[00:19:02] you

[00:19:02] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:19:02] have? Well, so, let me put it this way. So let's say that this person that you're talking about is a millennial, probably a hype, probably a high probability. They are high performance, a high-performing millennial that really espouses to some kind of leadership they want, they want to expand their, , , , responsibilities. Um, this is what I would, I would tell them, frankly,

[00:19:25]Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:19:25] get out, get out, get out. Hmm. Um, I like that. That's brash, man. That's I that's interesting.

[00:19:32] Go

[00:19:33] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:19:33] on. Well, so, you know, millennials, I think millennials get a bad rap in a lot of different ways. Hmm. I happen to love him, maybe it's because I raised one. So maybe I'm biased. Uh, millennials are not comfortable sitting around waiting for their turn to be a leader. They don't see a reason to do that.

[00:19:55] They, they are smart enough to know that they are as well-educated, if [00:20:00] not better educated than their boss. At least technically. Yeah. , and they've been told since the moment of birth, if not before that you are special that, , you can, you can accomplish anything you want to in life. And then we put them in these organizations where they are told to wait their turn and we wonder why they're not loyal.

[00:20:22]And so, , I actually had this question the other day, , you know, what would I tell a millennial? Let's say my son who was working in that kind of an organization and I'd say get out because you're never going to change the culture. And if you can find an organization that will intentionally develop you.

[00:20:40]And by the way, millennials are the first generation in the history of mankind that will take a cut in pay to work in a culture that's positive, , where their voice can be heard. And so I would tell that person go

[00:20:54] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:20:54] find another job. Yeah, whether they're a millennial or not, it's whether the voice of follow your Dharma, , but follow a [00:21:00] follow that, that vocation and be making that difference.

[00:21:03] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:21:03] Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that, that sounds, that sounds pretty rash, but you, you, you know, someone who's that low in the, and I hate the idea of the hierarchy, someone who's in that position, you know, they're, they're never going to change the culture, which is part of my, why. Is, I want to change the culture, the system of leadership, because systems of leadership, like every other system can be designed to capture that voice, but it does require a system that in effect builds a

[00:21:33] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:21:33] culture.

[00:21:34] Mm Hmm. So that being said, I'm going to, I'm going to plug your book. Thank you. Dan's book leveraging the genetics of leadership, cracking the code of sustainable team performance. , an excellent read. I've enjoyed that. And we've touched on communication. We've touched on respect. We've touched on being present to people.

[00:21:49]These are the, the, the, this is the DNA of improvement. This is the DNA of, of healthcare. This is the DNA of how things are going to turn around in this, this [00:22:00] battle cry for improving healthcare around the planet. And. It all connects to love. So, Dan, I want to honor you for bringing love into this conversation.

[00:22:11] I want to ring that bell. Yeah. Again for the Natalie for the salvation army for love. So one of my favorite questions I love to ask folks on the show is if you, for just a brief moment had the attention of all the healthcare folks on the planet, the doctors, nurses, the, the, even the lawyers that work in the hospital, everyone in healthcare from the staff, the pharmacists. For a brief moment on the whole planet, you have their attention. What would you say to them?

[00:22:35]Dan Edds, MBA: [00:22:35] I would say if you want to turn around your organization, healthcare in general, but more specifically your hospital, your clinic, your organization, if you want to massively transform that organization, there's one thing you need to do, and that has transformed the experience of your workforce. And I'm not saying that that's easy, but it is as simple as [00:23:00] that. If you transform the experience of your workforce, you will transform your organization and do it on a massive scale. I'll give you one example. It doesn't happen. Doesn't happen to be in healthcare book. Give you one

[00:23:14] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:23:14] example. I want to hear your example, and I want to point out this applies to everyone, whether you actually. Are at the HR level of transforming the experience or just being part of transforming the experience? Yes. Well, you're touching on Dan is that we can all be part of that. And frankly, the leaders also need the support of the frontline for also transform the experience. So I'm curious, what's your exhibit.

[00:23:35]Dan Edds, MBA: [00:23:35] Okay. So the example actually is, , , an elementary school. And I'm know that somebody, somebody goes driving down the road, making yell elementary school. What does that have to do with me? I'm a, I'm a CEO of a major hospital .

[00:23:45] Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:23:45] No, I want to hear this. This

[00:23:46] is great. Okay. All right. I'm a former hospital CEO. I want to hear

[00:23:49] this.

[00:23:50] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:23:50] Okay. And I, and I would, , I would argue that. , anybody in an executive position in a large organization not practice, or you ought to try being a principal of an elementary school [00:24:00] for a day? I think they would go running back to their executive suite. but this, this elementary school school of 450 students, , When Aaron became the principal of the, ratio, the, , free and reduced lunch rate was right around 65%.

[00:24:15]That means that 65% of the student population lived in an economic, social, economic environment where they, they qualify to free, free and, or reduced lunch. And, , When Aaron took this school over, it was the lowest performing school in a district of 18 elementary schools. So it's the lowest performing school. The prior principal had been run out of town by the union. There is open hostility and in-fighting with the staff. She actually had the opportunity to go to very prestigious school, , full of people with lots of money and lots of, , high academic expectations for their children.

[00:24:54]So, but true to form, she takes the more challenging opportunity. Five years later, it's the highest [00:25:00] performing elementary school in a district of 18 elementary schools. Wow. And when that wasn't good enough, they kicked it up another notch and became one of the few schools in the nation to actually close the achievement gap, which, and public K-12 education is a.

[00:25:17] Massive. Yeah. Massive accomplishment landing on the moon. That's like, that's like throwing a dart and hitting the moon. And, , when I was asking her, her approach to leadership exactly what she said, leadership, I don't know anything about leadership. She then went on to describe for me the most eloquent system of leadership I found outside the United States government, uh, nice States army.

[00:25:39]And, , when I asked her how she approaches the subject of leadership that she says she doesn't know anything about, she says, well, this won't be very popular, but love and grace. And again, I was like, where did those words come from? And then she started talking. Yeah. And then she started talking to me about

[00:25:56]Collaboration. And, and designing a [00:26:00] culture for her organization where people could collaborate. And what it really was, was the experience of her team, 75 educational professionals, including the janitors and custodians.

[00:26:12]They all wanted to feel part of a team. They all wanted to collaborate. They all wanted to feel as they, as they sit, as they, as they said in their, in their team charter. Optimistically hopeful. So at the end of the day, they wanted to feel optimistically, hopeful that they were doing a job that was going to impact students.

[00:26:33]And, uh, it was all about the experience of her workforce. Having that feeling of. I am valued here. I belong here. My input is, is, is important and I am free and open to collaborate with other, teachers and innovate. In fact, when we got done with the conversation, , she had talked about.

[00:26:57] Love and collaboration. Hint, hadn't [00:27:00] worked said the word grace again, since the first question. I, so I said, well, so you've talked about love and collaboration, but you haven't talked about grace. Where does that come from? And , , she pulls back the sleeve of her blouse. She said, and she points to the word, grace that she had tattooed to her wrist.

[00:27:17]She said, this is how we do innovation. She said, sometimes we get a brilliant idea of how to teach, you know, fourth grade math. And we think it's going to be the next greatest thing on the planet. And she said, sometimes it doesn't work. And she said, we have to learn to forgive ourselves. And as she says that she's pointing out to me, multiple Kleenex boxes around her office.

[00:27:42]And she said, yes, When we innovate, we have to take a risk. And my job as the principal is to support that. And sometimes that means I hand a teacher, a clean X-Box because they're heartbroken that they just spent two weeks teaching math and it didn't. work .

[00:27:59]Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:27:59] Powerful. [00:28:00] Powerful optimistically hopeful. Yeah.

[00:28:03] The optimism that there is a solution and the hope that it will be implemented. It's part of the restore assessment. Actually, I, I use your consulting, our work that I do with, with healthcare folks. , I'm so glad that you touched , on that. , Optimistically hopeful, Grace Love compassion. I think that, , there has been so much sorrow in healthcare, , when we lose a patient that we sure, , that, that it is heartbreaking every time.

[00:28:27]and, , there, also needs to be. Self-forgiveness , when you do your best and, and you're not able to perform, , , and, and the moral dilemma that healthcare people are going through right now with COVID, you just, this, this is just so delicious episode. I, I hope you've enjoyed this, Dan. I certainly have enjoyed getting to talk with you and I hope our listeners have been able , to have a feast, , in this conversation , and hopefully, , uh, nurturance and support for the heart as well.

[00:28:52] So if folks are interested in following up with you learning more about you or getting a copy of your book, , where can folks go?

[00:28:58] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:28:58] Well, best place is my [00:29:00] website, Daniel eds.com. I've got a resource page where. I've got to actually have a whole special re to special reports that are free. , one is titled four strategies to engage the workforce where I go into that in more detail, as well as 16 specific action items they could take to engage the workforce and then a newer one called creating a courageous culture where instead of focusing on developing courageous leaders, we flip that around and say, why don't we think about developing a courageous workforce?

[00:29:30]Patrick Swift, PhD, MBA, FACHE: [00:29:30] I love it. One of my daily contemplations is, is to embrace courage, compassion, joy, and hope. And, uh, when you, , talk about, , creating a courageous culture, it's not only fun alliteration to say, it, it speaks to hope. And optimism. So, Dan, thank you for that. Thank you for that. I'll be including your website in the show notes. Dan, thank you so much for being part of the show and let's just, thank you.

[00:29:51] Dan Edds, MBA: [00:29:51] Great honor. Thank you.